Getting Out of Prison through Expanders and Positive Delusions with Chris Wilson

Chris is a social entrepreneur, storyteller, artist, social justice advocate, and author of The Master Plan: My Journey from Life in Prison to a Life with Purpose. After spending 16 years in prison, Chris has spent the last 8 years in the Baltimore community dedicated to easing the reentry process for others and immersing himself in the arts. I have had many people reach out to me over the last several months asking how they can contribute to *the cause* of social justice. With this in mind, Chris and I will be discussing his story and how to frame your practice and passion so that your daily work has a greater and more positive social impact. For more about Chris Wilson check out https://chriswilson.biz/

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Abbie Henson: [00:00:00] Welcome to the first episode of Critical Conversations. My name is Abbie Henson and I'll be the one conversing with our guests. And I also serve as an assistant professor in the School of Criminology and Criminal Justice at Arizona State University. 

After the killing of George Floyd, my social media blew up.

I kept seeing posts and reposts and stories all about criminal and social justice issues. However, much of what I was seeing were just flat words that lacked voice and depth and nuance. And so I wanted to create a space where those words could come alive. I wanted to engage in dialogues with people who had actually been impacted by the criminal justice system, whether through their own experience research or both, I felt this was the moment to think critically, to examine the complexities of our system in place today, and to figure out how to move forward in a way that [00:01:00] allows for equity and true justice.

So I started hosting live webinars, both in an attempt to have the audience be active participants either by raising their hand and joining the conversation or by contributing a question to the chat box and to also build a sense of community and togetherness in a time when we were. So isolated through quarantine.

So all of the episodes that you're about to hear on this podcast are converted from those live streams. And while it can be really overwhelming to think about how to change a massive system, that seems so ingrained in the fabric of our society by participating in these conversations. And yes, you just listening to this podcast is participating that is where we see true change beginning. 

Thank you so much for tuning into my Critical Conversations with Chris Wilson. [00:02:00] Chris is a social entrepreneur artist, social advocate, and the author of The Master Plan: My Journey from Life in Prison to a Life of Purpose. Chris was incarcerated for 16 years of his life and has spent the last eight years immersed in the community in Baltimore city, pursuing his passion for painting and attempting to ease the re-entry process for those coming out of prison.

I hope that you enjoy this episode, feeling engaged and please as always continue the conversation once the episode is up. 

Chris Wilson: [00:02:35] Thank you just a little bit about myself. I am originally from Washington DC, born and raised, and I grew up under very difficult circumstances. A lot of gun violence, a lot of drug activity. This was around the time when the crack epidemic was sweeping through communities, particularly black and Brown. You know where I was very quiet and studious, but a lot of stuff happened to my [00:03:00] family. My mom was in an abusive relationship with a police officer, who she started. He started stalking our family and showed up one day and knocked me unconscious.

And when I woke up, he was sexually assaulted my mom. So they raped my mom in front of me. And then he tried to kill her. And, but she survived. We both survived and he lost his job because he was a police officer. And then he got out like a year and a half later, I started stalking a family. And back around this time, there was a law against stalking.

And so it was nothing we could do. So I started carrying a gun and I remember my brother and cousin being gunned down in front of my house. My cousin passed away. My brother survived. And some men came after me after this. And I ended up taking a person's life. I was a juvenile. I was sentenced. I was charged as an adult.

I was 17 and they sentenced me to life in prison. And when I went to prison, like I was 118 pounds, they didn't have a mustache on my face. And [00:04:00] I felt like my life was over. I fell into a deep depression, but I always knew in my heart that I was a good person. I didn't want to hurt anyone, but like they came after me and I decided that at this moment that I wanted to prove to myself and to everyone else that my life was redeemable. 

So I wrote up, it was kind of like a bucket list, but I wrote up what I call it, my Master Plan, which was a plan that turned my life around through education and through therapy and through helping other people.

And I shared this plan when I was young with my judge and with my grandmother. And so after that I started, I went to school. I got my high school diploma in two months. I did all the vocational shops. I run the college degree. I taught myself to read and write and several foreign languages. I started mentoring and exercising and eventually a long, long, long time after this.

I was able to get an opportunity to get out of prison and to have a second chance to live. But under certain conditions, my judge told me that, you know, I wrote up this very ambitious plan [00:05:00] and then I needed to do everything on the plan, you know, when a plan, I said that I wanted to write a book. I didn't know what social entrepreneurship meant at the time, but I wanted to start a business that helped people.

I wanted to travel the world. And my judge told me you have to do everything on this plan. And so I've been home from prison for about eight years, a little over eight years, and I started several successful companies. I've helped. Actually, I know the number I helped 281 people get jobs in Baltimore city won every award in the state of Maryland, a few classes away from earning another college degree, been offered a full ride and Harvard business school when a presidential war from Obama, my books being turned into a film and I started making art and selling my art all around the world.

I mean, it just like, it just never stopped.  but the most important thing about my story and the work that I do. Because then what I've learned throughout this journey is that, you know, even with self-improvement, they can't, it's not just about me. And [00:06:00] so I've been on a quest to help other people, the other Chris's of the world, help people understand how I ended up in prison and how I can help people that's behind kind of fits.

And so I know there was a lap, but it's, you know, in a nutshell that's pretty much my story.

Abbie Henson: [00:06:13] I feel like very, I don't want to tell, I want to talk about myself. Are you kidding, the Obama thing?

Chris Wilson: [00:06:24] I was like in the White House, I was like, how am I in the White House? Cracking open bottles of wine. Like, I can't believe it. Like, how did I get here? I was, you know, 

Abbie Henson: [00:06:32] That's what we have to figure out right. That's what we're talking about. So I think one of the things that you write in the book that I really liked, he said "a plan starts at the end."

And I liked that, right? Like what's the end game and you have to have some direction. And so, you know, one of the things that a lot of people talk about and hear for especially young [00:07:00] black men living in inner city communities or marginalized communities, is this idea that I won't live past 21, right?

Chris Wilson: [00:07:07] Yeah. I was one of these guys. Right. 

Abbie Henson: [00:07:10] And so what do you think allowed you. When you were in prison, like you had life, did any part of you accept that? Or did you always think I'm  going to figure out a way to get out?

Chris Wilson: [00:07:23] The first, the first year, maybe in a half, I was just like, I'm never getting out of here. And like simple stuff was like, get up and like comb your hands, like for what I'm going die here.

Like I'm not so sure. So no, but at a certain point and with the support of like therapy and surround myself with positive people, I started to develop what I call a "Positive Delusion". And the positive delusion was if you really like strive to turn your life around, if you go to therapy, when you have this opportunity, which, you know, you had to believe that you would have it.

Yeah. When you get [00:08:00] out that, you know, you will be successful. And so people thought I was crazy, like, you know, six years and eight years, and I'm studying flashcards and I have subscriptions to the wall street journal and I'm taking notes and people were like, what are you doing? All of this school? You never getting out.

And I was like, okay. I said, he thought I was crazy. And still I got out. 

Abbie Henson: [00:08:21] But what switch, like you had a year and a half of thinking for what? And then you switched what sparked the switch. 

Chris Wilson: [00:08:30] So it was a combination of things, right? Some of them honestly, right. Was a few dreams that I had. That was so realistic.

I was older and my dreams, I write about some of this in my book of like dreams, the realest dreams I've ever had in my life, where I was older, I was with family members. I was like down at like Miami some way or my feet in the water. And it was so real. I, I took it as like, this is like a side. And what switched also is when I met my friend, Steven, who also had a life [00:09:00] sentence, he was studying computer code and it was people fight him.

You know, people arguing over the phone and people doing pushups and getting tattoos and the rec room. And he was studying software. And what he told me was they've taken everything from us, but no one can ever take this from us. It's like everything we put in our heads, the knowledge, no one can ever take it from you.

I said he was like, you should think about it. And so I thought about it for a couple of days and I said, I'm smart. Like I love to read books. You know, I have a good work ethic. You know, I worked my ass off and maybe I should prove to myself or other people how intelligent I am. And so I just started studying and it was like, you know, we got this cool.

So we got this program and I said, let me set me up. And I would just knock it out. And I started developing more confidence that like, I would be successful. 

Abbie Henson: [00:09:47] Something that I came across about a year and a half ago is this notion of "Expanders" and how throughout our lives, we have to come into contact with people who are Expanders for us, who [00:10:00] essentially not only do they create opportunities for us, but they show the possibility that something can be an opportunity for us.

Right? Like your friend showing you that he's doing this thing. So you could say, Oh, he has a life sentence I'm in that position, but I could be like him, even your rooms could serve as expanding experiences where you're seeing that this is possible.

 I think something, something that's interesting, that kind of parallels is you're talking about being in an oppressive system where everything is stacked up against you and your concept is for what? Why would I do all of these things? And do you feel like living in a community that's hyper surveilled by police where you're experiencing daily racism? Do you feel like that notion of I'm not going to live past 21. Do you feel like that's a similar experience in why people feel that they can't go [00:11:00] forward past that time? Because it's like, what's right.

Chris Wilson: [00:11:04] So that's absolutely right. And to be honest with you, it's one of the reasons it's the main reason. Wow. I wanted to write a book. And when I thought about writing a book, I hadn't done really anything positive ever in my life at that point, but I wanted, I wanted to set some goals to do some positive things and like to break it down when I was young.

Oftentimes school counselors, even family members. They will walk by us. You know, we didn't have any opportunity by folks will walk by us and say you little young guys, so you can go get a job, we'll start your own business and do stuff. And then it would leave. Right. And what I would say that when I got older in therapy, I said, nobody who looked like me, who came from where I came from ever like sat down with me.

Like, how do you even like write a resume? You know, like how do you write a business plan? Like we just didn't know. And so in my mind, I wanted to become that positive example that went back into the so-called tough neighborhoods and show [00:12:00] people how to do these things. So that's been like the driving force for me even today.

Abbie Henson: [00:12:04] Right. You're the Expander now. Yeah. Yeah. I like this term too. Like, this is, this is, they will have to study up on it. Yeah, it's something that I've really appreciated. I think when I was reading your book too, and you had your caseworker and essentially saying, you know, you can't go to Nordstrom, it's too nice for you for next convict.

There's nothing for you here. Can you talk about as a writer and someone who expresses themselves through language and art. Can you talk about the importance of language in how it shapes perceptions and how it creates or blocks opportunities? 

Chris Wilson: [00:12:47] Absolutely. It's important in it. And especially for young people, when I was in school, like teachers sometimes would say, You're going to end up dead or in jail. And it's like, it's not something you should tell, like young [00:13:00] people, but like that, that type of language, when my caseworker was saying this, I was already, I had already had 14, 15 years of therapy and I went to college. Like I knew what my capabilities were. 

I guess what I learned in therapy, it's like, I can either choose to interpret like her comments and be angry and cuss her out or whatever, or I could just use that and channel it into energy to prove her wrong.

And that's one of the things that like, I'm very adamant about today and it's like, you know, there's always going to be someone who is going to be against you. That's going to not want to see you succeed. And like, don't let that beat you up. But just prove them wrong. And, you know, I write about a time, like after that maybe a year or two, after that, and I became successful and, you know, I had my tailored suit on and I saw it as case worker and I was nice to her, but like, I, I did let her know. She was like, you know, you work at, Hannah says all [00:14:00] these people, they work for me, this building, I'm building this right here and I can see it on her face. 

It isn't that classy to be like disrespectful in moments like that. You just, you just gotta prove people wrong. I just really like working, working hard.

Abbie Henson: [00:14:13] Right. Yeah. But one of the things you said was out of that, I felt anger, but more so I felt determined. 

Chris Wilson: [00:14:21] Yeah, absolutely. And it still drives me to this day. Like I have chips on my shoulder, but it's like, I just got to work harder. 

Abbie Henson: [00:14:27] Yeah. And do you feel like that's something that could be channeled in these communities too?

Chris Wilson: [00:14:32] So it was one of those things. So when I first started my first company furniture company, and then I saw the contracting company afterward, and I would hire people mostly who came off from prison or people who was dealt a bad hand in life. And like I had, you know, a really bad hand dealt to me and I would tell people that the world and other employees to do not kid the world was stepping on you.

If you, if you go into an interview and you talk about all the stuff you've been through and like [00:15:00] I sympathize, but like, nobody really cares not the way you do. And so you just gotta, you gotta be confident. And when you, when you approach employers, you gotta talk about what value do you add to the company?

What are your dreams? What are your goals? What are your strong, the strong suits? And just like, and just work hard and save your money, build your credit up.

Abbie Henson: [00:15:20] I think something that might be helpful. I know a lot of people are business owners or people who have the potential to hire that are either going to watch this or who are present today.

And I know that I've been in conversation with some people who would like to hire previously incarcerated people, but there is a sense of fear, especially if there's a violent crime that's publicly available on the record. And so when you're saying that you predominantly hire people coming out of prison, I mean, is it just because what I say to people is like criminal record or not, you catch a vibe of someone, right?

Like you can [00:16:00] tell if someone has mal-intent or is on a path to recovery, or if they've fully recovered. So, you know, I think what is. Something that you would tell employers, potential employers on how to navigate the employment process for previously incarcerated individuals. 

Chris Wilson: [00:16:22] So this is a really, really good topic, right.

And I guess because of my experience, I have a really fun to like BS radar. So it's real hard to bullshit me. Right? When you sit down for an interview. And I just would encourage employers to do the same thing. Also references four and two, right? Check the references and ask a bunch of questions or whatever.

It's really hard to fake all of this stuff. And even when some of the folks who have mental, I mentor a lot of people and some people will say, man, I don't want to work. No job. Well, I'd make it like $10 an [00:17:00] hour. Ain't enough money. And it's like, dude, you unemployed. He just came off from prison and you work this job in order to work the job that you want to work, but you got to build up some type of track record. So I've worked at $10 an hour job and get that good reference. 

So references.  very important. 

And also, you know, I, I started doing like interesting stuff and like interview given folks,  problems to try to solve, to see how they handle stuff and just like be real creative and your,  your interview strategies, see how people perform.

And then it's really hard to be this, like people like in this space. And so make your decisions based on that. And I will say that there is a large for Senate. I noticed some experience. A lot is percentage of people who come home from prison who really, really like one attorney lines around and deserve an opportunity.

And I've seen this like dozens and dozens of time. They will outwork everyone. They'll outwork everyone. And you know, it's same thing in college. Like when I was in college, like.

Abbie Henson: [00:18:01] [00:18:00] Going back to what you're talking about before proving everyone wrong. Right? 

Chris Wilson: [00:18:03] Absolutely. 

Abbie Henson: [00:18:04] So what can you talk about what your first job was out of prison and walk us through that day?

Chris Wilson: [00:18:12] So I was, I was nervous as our what, and mostly we're thinking you should be happy, but it was the new world. Right. And so I got out. And I was walking around. I thought people were crazy. I saw everybody like talking to themselves. I didn't know about the pieces where like the hands-free and when I said, why is everybody like talking to themselves?

But I was, I was super nervous and I was sleeping on my friend's sofa. And like, the first thing I did was, you know, I heard about like Google and YouTube and I was like, let me get this straight. I can punch in a question. And I can just like, as a tutorial can pop up, I didn't know how to tie ties. I knew I needed to get a job.

So I'm like punching this stuff and I stayed up all night, like going in and it was like, we can like water food and like, you know, Uber. And so I think it just like delivered. So he was like, yeah, wherever you want. And I just [00:19:00] couldn't believe it. And it took me a while to get my first job probably about two months, but I did have a college degree.

I did re-enroll to a university, University of Baltimore. And I started developing relationships with my professors. Don't, you know, making sure I got good grades and I was able to gain employment because my professors were references. And that's the number one way, how you gain employment anyway, is through having relationships with people.

Abbie Henson: [00:19:28] I mean, first of all, it's so crazy that in the transitional services that the prison provides, that they don't give you any training on just like every day. Like, this is what you're going to expect. People are walking around, talking to themselves these days, you know, there's no like. Education on just what society looks like now and how to navigate that, which already sets you at a disadvantage, right?

Chris Wilson: [00:19:56] It all is crazy depending on who you ask. Right? So [00:20:00] like, I would say you would probably say. We think the system is broken and it doesn't like equip people to be prepared or reentered society, but somebody else would say that it's working just fine. Because when you look at it, prison has been turned into a business, right?

So that didn't make it money. Folks, a lobbying, kickbacks are going to every and everyone, they want to get people back, like keep those beds filled. And so it is very challenging for folks to stay out. 

Abbie Henson: [00:20:26] It was interesting. I was having a conversation the other day, cause I want to create this Think Tank at ASU, that essentially is multi-disciplinary includes people.

Who've gone through the system themselves. I would ask you this because you've been through it. There's always the conversation that happens. Amongst abolitionists or people who are invested in this topic where we say prisons don't work. We know they cause more harm than good. They don't deter crime.

Then someone asks in the conversation. Okay. But what do we do with Johnny, the murderer or Johnny, the [00:21:00] rapist or the guy that actually we need to get off the streets. And then the conversation ends with, well, shit. I don't know. And then we move on and so. The idea is that I would create a space where literally that is the only question that we are attending to, like, how are we creating a space that can keep the public safe, but also is informed by the history of racism in America and is informed by marginalization. And doesn't necessarily punish through isolation and stigmatization, but just serves as almost a placeholder or whatever you think. If you've thought about this at all. 

Chris Wilson: [00:21:41] Yeah, I think, I think about this a lot actually.

Cause I, I work, I go back into the prisons now I fund program prison programs and stuff through my foundation. Just to go back to the beginning of like the statement, to be honest, like I grew up in prison. I write about this a little bit and to be straight up with you, [00:22:00] there is a small percentage of people in prison they probably belong there. Yeah. Right. And it was strange coming from me saying that, but,  I've been around, I've seen people get killed. I've seen people kill other people and stuff like that. But then the most important thing to think about is this right. A lot of people who end up in prison. And I've sat down and I'd have to review with you.

See, for years, a lot of these people were dealt, really bad has a life worse than mine, no educational opportunities, years and years and years of abuse, all of these young people, mostly like when all this stuff happened to them, did not have access to like therapy and treatment and services. And even in my community, like we were told, just get over it.

And like, these are unresolved issues and trauma that's inside folks, entire communities. So at some point. We all know that hurt people, hurt people. So like they end up in prison because they do something and they haven't resolved like these issues. And yeah, like you should be punished if you commit crimes, but we're paying for this is [00:23:00] tax paying citizens.

Right. So why they end it? What don't we all want them to get the help to correct any of these deficiencies to get some education. So, because 95% of people go to prison, they come back out. 

Do we want them to be worse? When they come out. So like, we want them to get therapy, wanting to get some education.

So when they get out, they figure out like how they ended up in prison. And when they come out, they don't go back. They don't, they don't come out worse and they don't hurt people. They don't like break into your houses and kill someone else. Right. And we go and notice like the science supports this even a little bit of therapy and education reduces the recidivism rate.

Abbie Henson: [00:23:36] It's so powerful to hear you say that you grew up in prison because I think that for so many people who have not been in a prison who have not worked in a prison who have not gone to prison, it almost. Is perceived as this time vortex where timestamp still nothing happens. There's no growth. And then they're just like pumped, but [00:24:00] they like suck out there, like in this limbo black, but they're floating and then they come back out.

But so, I mean, you are growing, you are living in this confined space. And I think that it's really important for people to recognize that. And I've done a lot of work with juvenile lifers, who they literally are growing up, people who spent 40 years in prison, and that was their life experience. Right?

Like that's all they knew to grow up in prison. And so when we. Humanize the experience. And when we really talk about the fact that people are living in these environments, they're not just stagnant. The other thing, just to loop back in that conversation that I was having recently about this Think Tank, I was saying, because you were just talking about the kickbacks and I was saying how I need to find investors who just are there for the cause rather than the kickback and right.

This person that I was speaking to is very [00:25:00] business oriented. And they were saying, well, you know, Exxon has a renewable energy research team because they know that's the next thing. And so they're trying to get in on the good training. So he was saying, you know, you could go to these private prison corporations and say, you know, this is the next wave you might want to invest.

And I was thinking, but this is like, I don't want there to be any kind of kickback. 

Chris Wilson: [00:25:25] I mean, you're right. You ranked so like, like money, a corruptible motivator, right? I think it's the bag. I like money. Money. Money is great. It's a tool, but it shouldn't be your number one motivator. Cause like once you get it, like you just want more of it.

And when you think about like these predatory prison companies, That you got to think about also like the firms that put the money into it. Like they want 10 X, they want 20 X back. Right. So they want, they want returns. And so that's, they're so motivated and that's bad. I've had sit downs with CEOs of these predatory companies and talk to them face to face.

[00:26:00] And, you know, I always ask them like what side of like, history that you want to be on. But then I also got to think about like, you know, racism in America, the structural racism stuff that's embedded is very, very hard to get someone who doesn't look like me, who comes, where I come from to care about a younger version of myself, some young black kids, some young black girl, it's like.

Did most of these people just don't, they don't care. They're not, they don't care about those people because they don't look like that. They don't come from where they come from. 

Abbie Henson: [00:26:30] How do you get those people to care? 

Chris Wilson: [00:26:32] I mean, like one of the things like I've been doing, I've been writing articles about like these companies, you got to go after the money.

You got to go after, like, you can take, for example, like the companies like Securus and GTL, these predatory prison companies. Right. Like the parent companies who invest in these companies, they use in school pension funds to invest in this. And like, you know, these schools like don't know where like the [00:27:00] fuck they don't know about this stuff.

And so it's about educating the population about like, this is how it works. When folks complain about like crime and stuff is happening. That is actually fueling it. Right? So if you fuel in this and take a person who goes to prison and these predatory companies like listen, you know, the average person in my prison made $25 a month and make a 30 minute phone call was $10.

And so you gotta make a decision. Do I call home this month? One time I want my coffee, I need my deodorant. I need my soap that I got to get and they can't do it. So I didn't get the deodorant, the soap, and then their families. Go into debt by running up the phone bills and it paid $15. Well, virtual like visit like all of this stuff, and then they take your right to vote.

When you come home, it's just like a whole, a whole evolving cycle that keeps people incarcerated. And there's a lot of people in America who just don't know that the system is churning out and really like decimate in communities with people of color. 

Abbie Henson: [00:27:58] We're talking about [00:28:00] the fact that in prison, you got an education in prison. You went through vocational training in prison. 

If we're to say that prisons work it's because they are providing resources. 

Chris Wilson: [00:28:16] Right. If we were to say that. 

Abbie Henson: [00:28:18] Yeah. If we were to say, when we're talking about defunding and community reinvestment, people are thinking, well, how is that going to contribute to public safety?

But literally the prison model is the idea that if you give people resources, they will be better citizens and less dangerous when they get out. 

Chris Wilson: [00:28:38] Not necessarily, but like, but maybe 

Abbie Henson: [00:28:41] The hope is that. 

Chris Wilson: [00:28:42] That's the hope. So here's the thing, right? You can't just slide a book across the table to someone and say, and like, if I'm the prison, I slapped you like a GED book and say I'm providing GD services.

Right. And like, I gave it to him what we need in [00:29:00] American prisons. There should be educational mandates. Right? So yeah, like most prisons have schools. They've got stuff. People ain't doing shit. Right. Usually like in his classes to teach us like in there, like doodling, they're not providing. And so like if we mandate, like, all right, well, we given you money.

There's a school is a vocational shop. We want data, we want outcomes and you'll be hold accountable. Right. That changes the game. Then you get a better return on it, because then they have to say, well, if we not, like, if we not really like running this the way it should be that we not going to get this funded, but like they get funded and the schools equipped teachers, they might lock the prison down.

They might not have classes for three or four days. They'd be like.... 

Abbie Henson: [00:29:39] Well, but I think that this is a really good argument for when people say, how is community resources gonna keep the public safe? You just say, well, that's why we have prisons. Like when I've interviewed a bunch of dudes who have gone through jail or prison, a lot of times they'll say, and I, [00:30:00] I hate to hear it, but they'll say jail saved me or prison to me and I'll press them on it.

I don't necessarily think that that means jail was successful. I think that that, that the community failed you. If prison is the place, that is the only place that you can get resources is the only place that you can get therapy is the only place that you can have a moment to reflect. Then that is more a reflection on the community than the prison.

Chris Wilson: [00:30:29] Absolutely. No, no doubt about it. And like, and then like, I think like what folks meant that like, people use that all the time and always get asked and they're like, do you think that when you went to prison and like the death saved your life, it's like, I never want to want people to think that you need to go to prison to be saved, but like, you know, there's so much stuff to your point that's happening in that community.

So many failures that like prisons sometimes allow.  a pause in your life to really like, think about your [00:31:00] trajectory and where you're heading in life. And really like, look at like, you know, and think about, like, when I first went out, I was thinking about conversations I had with my school counselors conversations I had with my grandfather when he was on his death bed, like all this stuff.

And I just was like, damn. We should have been getting this when we were home as young people like in schools and other communities get this, by the way that someone shoot up a school or something happens, I'm in a neighborhood, a white neighborhood. Whenever it started is this that people coming together, parents are showing up, PTA, BS, all that stuff happened.

And that's how it's supposed to be. It's not like that. 

Abbie Henson: [00:31:37] So even in the book, you talk about the electricity's on and off, you are getting eviction bills. Do you think that impart the reason why you're able to take that pause in prison is because you just have these basic. Fundamental Maslow's hierarchy of needs?

You have, these needs met, like, you know, that you have a place to sleep, you know, that you're [00:32:00] getting food, like, like what percentage of people would you say in prison are coming from an environment where those needs were wavering?

Chris Wilson: [00:32:09] 85% at least. And you're right. So I write about this too, was like in the sound, it sounds crazy just thinking about it, but.

You know, three meals a day in prison and like having like, you know, clean sheets and like an environment where I can just take a break and really like thing. And that's something like, I just didn't have at a point in my life. And then, you know, miles law Maslow's hierarchy of needs. It's like, once you have all these, these things, the top of the pyramid is self-efficacy right.

So it was like, whatever he was like, meant to do. You need your basics covered? And then you could start thinking about like, what is my purpose in life? What is it that I could do? And it's fortunate that like, some people have to go to prison in order to figure out where they were really meant to do.

Right. We should be getting that. We should be thinking about that in our communities. Right? 

Abbie Henson: [00:32:59] So let's [00:33:00] talk about what you do and let's talk about your art, because I know that you use a lot of the funds from your art to help people who are coming home from prison, you, you are using. And you know, this is one of the main takeaways from this conversation for our viewers and listeners is.

You have figured out how to do something that you love, that you feel passionate about, that you excel in and feel fulfilled by while also striving towards social change? 

Chris Wilson: [00:33:33] Absolutely. I fell into visual art sort of by accident and it was actually in the process of getting my book published. And I had to go to court to argue, to get the right, to be able to tell my story, which was challenged.

And I had to borrow money. I was living in Baltimore city. It was a lot, a ton of gun violence and people were getting killed. I had a few attempts against my [00:34:00] life. I was in business school. It was just so much going on. And my contracting company that I own, I was doing a lot of work for artists, transport and art and installation is back and forth to New York.

But when I'm a get off work, I work long hours, 12 hours, I would get off work and I would go back to the studios and I would sit down and I'll be real tired. And my artist friends would just be making art. And I would talk, I would ask, like, what is this about? And they started telling me stories about, you know, racism and economic opportunities and stuff.

And I kept doing it. I kept going back every day, like as much as possible. And then one day for my birthday, one of my artists, friends said, I'm gonna get you some art lessons. And I was like, I don't want art lessons, give me some money or something. He was like, no, it's in you. And I remember him telling me, think about stuff that you care about.

And I was like criminal justice reform, and he says, you need to be able to defend your Hawks. So any piece of art that you make, you got to research it, you gotta investigate it. You gotta be able to defend it. And he was like, it should look [00:35:00] good too. If the school will survive as well. I started making art and I remember like doing like a few pieces on solitary confinement and stuff.

And I remember how it made me feel where all these things going on.  you know, me having to hire lawyers and stuff. I ain't had no money, but I could go home and I can paint. And when I picked up the brush and dip the paint. I started painting. I forgot about every day. And so I still go to therapy. Like I was going to therapy every, every Wednesday.

And my therapist was just very encouraging and just like put it on the canvas and just do it. And then I started selling my work and I started selling it all around the world. Like I went to Italy and I stayed with like a famous sculptor and I traveled around then I went to France and Germany and Spain and like just everywhere.

And I've been selling my work all around America, all around the world. And. Has given me the power as solace, and I've been helping a lot of people and like the coolest thing about it is I [00:36:00] love it. It's not work to me. Right, right. So it's just a beautiful 

It's your life of purpose. Like you're doing, you're doing, you are engaging in something you love with a purpose.

And I think that so often when I speak to people who are like, what can I do? What can I do for the cause? What organization can I donate to? What one-off thing? What, like Saturday volunteer opportunity is there for me. And I think that we all just have to be far more purposeful in the work that we're doing so that no matter what it is.

Abbie Henson: [00:36:38] And I think that it's so amazing that you can, you have the ability to combine your passion with justice. You know, some schools require community service. Right. Like high school or whatever. And usually it's a day and you're like, so over it, and you don't know, like there's no class [00:37:00] around what you're doing this, right.

Almost an annoying thing you have to get done. But I think if we started teaching at an early age, the importance of service and the need to work towards equity, then we would see more people. Doing work in a more purposeful way. Not necessarily that everyone has to work for a criminal justice organization or that everyone has to work for a racial justice organization, but that they are, that their outcomes of work have some impact in the field.

Chris Wilson: [00:37:35] Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's very important. I'm actually working on some curriculum, like a masterclass style course based off of my book. So use in prisons. And one of the things that I've included in one of the units, you know, you can focus on self improvement. It could be about just you, but it shouldn't be.

And I remember when I started thinking about the collective and like people around me and helping them. And at [00:38:00] first I was resistant. Like I wrote about this it's was like, I don't know these dudes, like, why should I help them? Like I got my life together. I'm good. It's all about me. But when you start thinking about like everyone else and like people in your or

bit, I think about like the feeling when I help someone like the blessings come back tenfold, and it's been that way ever since for many, many years.

So it's gotta be more if we want to create a world that our children would live in that's, that's better than what we live in. And so I think that should be like back to go. Everyone should do that. 

Abbie Henson: [00:38:29] Something that I struggled with. And this is just a personal question that I'm interested in. You do a lot of work in prisons.

Yeah. But you also, and correct me if I'm wrong and maybe not in the political sense, but ideologically, do you consider yourself a prison abolitionist? 

Chris Wilson: [00:38:48] No, I don't think so. I don't think so. Some of my friends, right. We have these debates all the time and say, I don't think that should be prisons at all.

And like every [00:39:00] single person who has said this never been to prison, like I'm, I'm a champion for criminal justice reform, but check this out. I've met monsters. I've met people that like, you know, maybe they women on the Hill, whatever, but that cell door will open up. If anything that's living around them, they have kill it.

Where do they stay at? Like, what community would they be in? And so I've seen it. And so I'm not saying. I dunno, it's complicated, right? It's just, we should run our prisons differently, but I've met very, very evil people in my life. I don't know what you do with them. I'm not a fan of the death penalty at all, but like there has to be a place for them where it keeps people safe.

Abbie Henson: [00:39:44] So then we sh you should join my Think Tank. And then we find, because I was gonna say the thing that I struggle with, like, as you said, there's 85% of the people in prison don't need to be in prison. Don't there's that 15 or [00:40:00] less. That are these quote unquote monsters are who people who need extra service.

Right. I don't believe that the way that we have prisons today and the structure of prisons that we have today should exist yet. I'm drawn to work in prisons because those people I care about. But then I, I feel conflicted because I'm putting my energy into a system that I don't believe in.

When I feel like my energy should be maybe put towards efforts that are trying to get rid of this system that I don't believe it.

Chris Wilson: [00:40:37] I disagree with that a little bit. Right. So it was someone like you who was able to reach out and like tapped in. And so like my internal, like,  the checks or whatever, and I've met many people like you, who once is it related to this person, but like what was going in and local mail in books or [00:41:00] sending letters, those, those types of seeds I've seen it like, like dozens and dozens of times. And it's also confusing for like, for us. And it's like, why is this person it's like seeing this potential in us? And like that changes lives and then they come home and they do it for someone else.

And so, you know, and you also got to think about like, what's practical, like big ships turn term slow, right? So you can say, yeah, you want to get rid of, I tell this to my friends who are like, we shouldn't be no prisons. I was like, you think you can put this off in your lifetime? And I said, why are you trying to like, like, say like, there should be no prisons, this thousands of thousands of people who do could probably reach.

Who you won't reach, who's going to come back. We'll may die or go back to prison or we'll never get out. What about them? Right. Almost I'm one of them.

Abbie Henson: [00:41:47] I know that you've been doing a lot of research and work on local elections. Yeah. So school that people a little bit, actually. 

Chris Wilson: [00:41:58] Yeah. So I just cast it my [00:42:00] vote, I guess, last week.

And I think about 2016, I voted for the first time in my life. I worked for a couple of years alongside,  so amazing people to override the governor of the state of Maryland and to allow people who make the big bit of felonies to both. So that opened up the opportunity for 44,000 people in the state of Maryland to vote.

So I was able to cast my vote, but I was caught off guard because when I got my ballot, I knew like, you know, who I was working for the president and stuff, but they have so much other stuff on the ballot, right. Judges for reelection States, attorneys. Local ordinance of like, you know, how school money is stuff, who's casino, you know, legislation.

And I was like, damn, I didn't know about all this stuff. And it's so important. And when you think about. On a state level or local level, you think about district attorneys and judges and stuff. These are folks who have a lot of discretionary power to make decisions. A person who has a drug problem that gets caught with like [00:43:00] $30, where for like heroine, when they shouldn't be sent to prison for 10 years, they should go to a drug treatment program to get help.

Right. That's a strain on the system. It costs way too much. It doesn't work. And. Us as citizens text-based citizens, we should investigate by who's on the ballot. We should ask questions. We should hold our elected officials accountable. And then if we do this, we get the right people in place and power that make the right decisions that saves us money.

We can put that money that we save into our schools. It's just the right thing. But people often don't think about the employee focus at on a local level. 

Abbie Henson: [00:43:36] And I think tomorrow looming over our heads. 

Chris Wilson: [00:43:40] Oh yeah. I'm nervous.

Me too. It'll 

Abbie Henson: [00:43:44] be pretty amazing. I think to see how many people turned out to vote, no matter what that civic service, I think people feel fired up now and I think are realizing their impact [00:44:00] on the social experience.

You know, this is an exciting time. And I think the fact that criminal justice is on the ballot, right? Like people it's all ticket. People are talking about that. And I think that this is. Exciting is a weird word for this, but it's an exciting time to be on this side of history that you were saying that you asked your friend, right?

Like what side of history do you want to be on the fact that we are at a time where there's some bipartisan support for the why? Why do you think that is?

Chris Wilson: [00:44:39] I think it's a combination of things, right. And I have this conversation a lot with people. It's about like, at the end of the day, what Emma side of the house that you want, we all want the same shit.

We all want like good schools. We all want to be safe. And you look at like this pandemic and how it's been handled. And it's like, it doesn't really like, matter like what your, your political [00:45:00] affiliation is. Like, you don't want to get sick. You don't want to die. Like, you know, people losing grandmothers and grandfathers or whatever, like we want like the same stuff and then we'd look at it like all these people now will add to cameras, cell, phone cameras and stuff, and we'll look at all. You see, we been getting killed, but like, we'd look at it. Like you can't deny it. We can't deny like these racist systems and policies that's in place. And like we see police officers getting off and all the stuff's happening, you know, I think the country has had enough.

And I think a lot of people show up, they are showing up, we see it all over the country. Policies are slowly like changing and I think we should, we should use this momentum to really like move the country in the right direction. 

Abbie Henson: [00:45:42] I think so too. Okay. My friend who couldn't attend, she had texted me a question.

So we'll start there. And again, if anyone wants to throw a question in the chat box, go ahead. She basically was asking if. [00:46:00] We could invest in just one resource to start in the community that you think would have helped you maybe not lead to prison. What would you say would be maybe one of the more impactful resources to?

Chris Wilson: [00:46:17] I like this question.

So I would say it would be a trauma, trauma care specialists and schools, particularly like young people. And you think about a young person. Like, I mean, and I mean like elementary school, we're asking a lot when I was in elementary school. And you think about a young person whose brain isn't developed yet the prefrontal cortex way, which, which makes sense out of like experiences and stuff that happens.

Right. So young people can't really make sense of like traumatic experiences when they're young. And so like stuff happens and we just don't know why it happened or whatever. Like those young people need the right kind of treatment. Because if I, if we invest in our young people, it changes trajectory of the future of cities and stuff like [00:47:00] that.

And I think that would be like one thing that I would change if I had it's a bunch of stuff, but like, like young people. 

Abbie Henson: [00:47:06] What else do you think would be important? 

Chris Wilson: [00:47:08] I mean, you know, racial discrimination and like our criminal justice system and sentencing policies of like, You look at 94 crime bill, whereas like cocaine, like powder cocaine versus like crack cocaine, like that stuff that's ridiculous or whatever.

So stuff like that, just like creating an affair. A criminal justice system is decimated this country. 

Abbie Henson: [00:47:32] Someone saide, How do we purchase some Chris Wilson art? Let people know how I can say, how can they buy some art? I was actually going to ask the same question cause I want got a little clean wall space. 

Chris Wilson: [00:47:46] So I think like right now my, my website isn't live yet, but folks could reach out to me through Instagram principals in Baltimore.

Just messaged me and I'll respond and I can set up, you know, a virtual studio [00:48:00] tool, or if you're in New York or in Baltimore, I can erase like an in-person,  studio visit that YMS stuff. And my website, you know, I think, you know, chriswilson.biz  .B I Z Is active as an outlet of art on that website, but my site will be live, but I would just say it goes through Instagram.

Abbie Henson: [00:48:17] I think something that, Oh yeah, the police. Okay. We're we're definitely. So it was this idea. He was saying that most police are, are thinking I'm out to get the bad guys. And what I know what I've heard firsthand, what I would say you've experienced is that it's not bad guys. It's traumatized people. Right.

And I think that educating. And I want to move away from this idea of training the police, because training is not the same as educating. And I think education has seeps deeper, but I think educating [00:49:00] those who were potentially hiring to understand that the trauma that people have experienced, which leads to criminal engagement, right.

Like, right. 

Chris Wilson: [00:49:08] No you're right. And so I think about this a lot, you know, I look at like Baltimore, for example, right. And I think about how I grew up, like the police used to get out. They cause and like officer a friendly, used to come to the schools and the police who worked in the communities, they knew who my grandmother was.

They knew my uncles, they knew the names of folks or whatever. And then when it was like minor, like altercations. They can like sit people down and we miss him to the police or whatever now was just like, they just the enemy. And it's just like, you know, it's zero sum. You can't talk to them. They don't like it when they show up, they like, you know, they slam you on the ground.

Is this like, it's a different, it's a different experience and it don't have to be this way.

Abbie Henson: [00:49:50] I don't know if there's a way to get back to what you were just talking about in the previous generation.

Chris Wilson: [00:49:57] We're working on it. Now we got to start over. We got to [00:50:00] break it up and you don't know. Some people say like defund, the police or people got all crazy.

Oh, we need police or medicine in your community without police. I give you an example. So in Baltimore, We got a bunch of helicopters, that hover. And I don't know if you know how much it costs, like to keep guests guessing the helicopter and like pilots. It's a lot of money and they just like, they only fly over certain neighborhoods and they terrorize the shit out of it.

Right. The spotlights all night just buzzing and stuff. And when I would say is, well, what is the return on the money that we spend for these helicopters to be up all night? Right. And not like they don't want arrested, not arrested anyone. Right. How about we take that money that we spent on these helicopters and we invest in as some type of community mediation programs and stuff like that.

So like, that's what we're saying, what we say, maybe it's not defund, this is divestal. Just shifted to something that I really like works. Cause like certain stuff, like why do we need tanks and all this stuff and all this like can and shit like that. Don't it don't make sense. 

Abbie Henson: [00:50:57] Yeah, investing in the resources that we know [00:51:00] lead to better public health and therefore better public safety outcomes.

The main thing someone asked, are you going to write another book? 

Chris Wilson: [00:51:11] Yeah, I'm working on, I was actually working on it this morning, so I will be writing another book. It probably would be heavily art related, but yeah, I definitely want to,  Write another book. I hope whoever said that,  read the first book.

Abbie Henson: [00:51:25] They're gonna have to!

Chris Wilson: [00:51:26] I did the audio book to them, a voice to the folks who like, I don't, I don't read, but like you drive back and forth to work. You can, you can listen to me while you go back to work. Thank you, Addy for writing the,  for this discussion. And I encourage everyone to read the book, leave me some reviews too, good or bad, or whatever.

And hopefully if you enjoy my book sharing with someone else, because I believe it will make a difference in your life.

Abbie Henson: [00:51:57] Thank you all so much for participating [00:52:00] in my Critical Conversations with Chris Wilson. Next episode, I'll be speaking with Dr. Whitney Q Hollins, an advocate, researcher, educator, and justice impacted individual. We'll be thinking about how to move away from stigmatizing language when speaking about justice involved and impacted individuals.

Towards more strengths based narratives. This conversation definitely made me think, and I hope that you find it equally as impactful.

 Expect new episodes every other Monday. And don't forget to subscribe. I'm Abbie Henson, and this was Critical Conversations.