Empowering the Community from Within with Gregory Coachman

In this episode, I am joined by Gregrory Coachman, a Philadelphia-based social entrepreneur and the founder of the lifestyle brand, Urban Recreation. The original audio draws from a webinar that took place during the height of the summer 2020 protests and highlights how the kinds of contentious interactions with police that we saw during the protests are a part of everyday life for many young Black folks in marginalized communities. This discussion also focuses on the importance of empowering the community from within and drawing from community members' existing strengths. Greg encourages listeners to consider their own expertise and to donate knowledge rather than to simply donate money. Finally, our conversation investigates how to speak with those who hold opposing views, noting the importance of conversation and curiosity and how, in order to be heard, it is imperative to listen.

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Transcript

Abbie: [00:00:00] Welcome to critical conversations. My name is Abbie Henson and I'll be the one conversing with our guests. And I also serve as an assistant professor in the school of criminology and criminal justice at Arizona state university. After the killing of George Floyd, my social media blew up. I kept seeing posts and reposts and stories all about criminal and social justice issues.

However, much of what I was seeing were just. Flat words that lacked voice and depth and nuance. And so I wanted to create a space where those words could come alive. I wanted to engage in dialogues with people who had actually been impacted by the criminal justice system, whether through their own experience research or both, I felt this was the moment to think critically to examine the complexities of our system in place today, and to figure out how to move.

Forward in a way that allows for equity and true justice. So I started hosting live webinars, both in an attempt to have the audience be active participants either by raising their hand and joining the conversation, or by contributing a question to the chat box and to also build a sense of community and togetherness in a time when we were.

So isolated through quarantine. So all of the episodes that you're about to hear on this podcast are converted from those lives streets. And while it can be really overwhelming to think about how to change a massive system, that seems so ingrained in the fabric of our society by participating in these conversations.

And yes, You just listening to this podcast is participating is where we see true change beginning. Hey everyone. Thank you so much for joining me in this critical conversation with Gregory Coachman, a Philadelphia based social entrepreneur, trainer, and creator of the lifestyle brand urban recreation.

This episode draws from the first webinar that inspired this podcast. It was recorded at the peak of the protests in the summer of 2020 following the killing of George Floyd, Greg and I had been speaking about the current events and thought it was important to model interracial dialogue on the topics of race and racism in America, and to address many of our friends and families questions on how to.

Speak about these issues in a vulnerable and compassionate way. Everything that we discussed back in 2020 has remained relevant as reminders of the existence of racial inequality in America have persisted. So I hope that you find this episode helpful and feel engaged and please as always continue the conversation.

Once the episode is up. 

Greg: [00:03:02] I've had to question myself, why am I qualified to even talk about this? And I wouldn't say is because of my ethnicity or color of my skin, that's just surface. I was fortunate enough, you know, being born in Brooklyn. My mother is from Albi projects, Crown Heights. My father is from the old best time, not gentrified Bedstein from Fulton Avenue and they did what they had to do to move me and my brothers and sisters.

To, you know, a better neighborhood in Brooklyn and then eventually to Philadelphia, West Philadelphia, but not, it was middle class, West Philadelphia university city. I was able to grow up and kind of teed on both lines of the field. Like, ah, I was in middle America where I had people from everywhere in the world was a, it was a huge melting pot.

So I was there with them, uh, interact with them, pretty took on, you know, their lifestyle and their culture. But I would always go. You know, see my family go back to Albany projects and I was there with them. And then, I mean, the way cities are built, you only a half a mile away from more inner city activity, that's, you know, non middle class, whatever the case may be.

I always accepted in both worlds. So I was always able to kind of get the best of both worlds, uh, and kind of, uh, I was pretty much always just that news reporter. Uh, then people know this was going nowhere. That's what's going on, where we should be doing this or whatever the case may be as I grew up.

You know, my mother, my father passed away. My mother raised me. Uh, she did everything she could to keep me on a straight path, but, you know, curious young bill always, you know, just wanted to do the best for my family. You know, found myself getting in and out of trouble. But at the core that wasn't who I was.

I was pretty much a sheep and goats clothing. I was going into wolves day. Pretty much, you know, didn't belong, but medication may be under how to navigate. Eventually found my way out of that den. And it was easy for me to transition back into, I mean, pretty much mainstream America, you know, like a limb written out.

So it was like, you know, my life isn't too rough, but those kids, when I'm in those areas, they do listen. I mean, and you know, they do look up to me and I didn't realize that I had that effect outside of the inner city until I went to a school for career day. And these kids, uh, predominantly non-black. I, when I left, I was a, uh, an, I think we had like FBI agent, a lawyer, like, can I came in here to tell him about real estate?

I worked on real estate. A lot of people know me from fitness, but when you're talking about that, and as I left, the children are hurt all the children. When they're talking about, you know, me and, you know, they, they kind of identify with mind you in black, these kids were, they identify with me and it was because.

They saw someone like, you know, that kind of had that swagger or whatever they see on television, whatever it that they look up to. So I was like, all right, guess what I noticed in my power? I mean, I can, uh, my problem is within, it's not, I can, uh, I can touch the youth and let them know. What's the stuff that we told them, uh, is that appeal.

And that's what it was for me as well. I didn't know anyone who worked in, uh, finance or attorneys or nothing like that growing up. I mean, people, we looked up to where I was from, who kind of like, you know, they had that certain appeal. They weren't doing the right thing. So it was like, what I did was you followed them.

It was the image of success. And that's what happens at the corporate, with the youth later on in life. You know, you, you found those paths, you found those ways. And then I started to through business, I started to interact with people, uh, who didn't know. And I started getting more of their backgrounds and I started realizing like, all right, this person, uh, they were guided.

It was information that was released to them or reported back to them that wasn't reported back to me. It wasn't, I'm like, wow, I'm credible with numbers, but why didn't I know there was a such thing called finance, and then I'm sending regard where it's a finance. I'm like, you're not, I mean, your jargon is cool.

It's fancy. But so it's like, that's still no young guys today. They don't know that as I was doing my research today, like before I came up here to talk. I said, uh, you know what, I'm going to go out there and see what's going on outside in the trenches, like WELBRO street. I saw someone on Instagram posts, they showed the national guard and everything.

I said, I'm gonna go out there in the trenches. See what happens right. Using out emotional person. Like I didn't cry my best friend's funeral. My father's funeral. My grandma's few of these people close to me. Um, multiple friends and peers never caught it. The funeral I went out there today, just thinking I was going to view.

And what I witnessed was young males. I saw it in them. I saw something in my soul, the police reaction to them, mind you, they were not all white cops. I saw some black cops with hate in their eyes for these young men. And what I noticed was these young men saw their fathers, themselves, their friends, these women, that was like little finger.

And the police I'm like, this is their daily interaction. I mean, I don't see that anymore, but this is their daily interaction. While we're sitting here in, on a, in a high castle, we don't see that this is their everyday on the right, just so we're looking at news. Why are you so angry? I'm like, no, they see this every day.

And then after they'll probably hold off to prison, regardless of what they're doing illegal or not right or wrong. When they go inside the prison to go visit that person is more, that ridicule is more that, that treatment. So I witnessed it today. I'm like, Oh, that's what it was like. I was just sitting back watching social media.

I'm in the trenches. And I see the anger in these young guys. None of them was looting either. They were just out there in the trenches. And I saw a police officer say there was one guy he's like, can't wait to get you a CRC, have to give you a cold pack. And I'm like, Whoa, like really? And I didn't cry at the moment.

It was when I started to walk off and I was like, just the playback of the aggression in his face. I met him and that's when I realized I'm like, I saw a girl, Oh, white female risk bleeding. Right. And that is what I'm like, you know what? It's a machine we frightened against. There's a machine that was created by white Christian males, one, but it's a machine that we're fighting against a set up, they set up the machine.

And when you have police officers, regardless of the race, once they join that machine, they're part of the machine, all those people that was out there together, they were the people like to, I what the people versus the machine, like I witnessed it and I'm like, it's very clear and apparent and not put politics into it or anything, but.

A lot of the otherness, we say politics, it caused a lot of people to band together that had the same regard to filling. And now this situation with George fluid, it made a lot of people band together, but we can't do is let that die. Not let it be, uh, just pick it a week. Like this is going to, we were talking about this week, last week was Corolla, and then we can't let it die.

You got to continue to act. That was in that same feeling. Like, and that's the reason why I went Abby. Like I watched Eddie stories like religiously, just because. This is not an act for her. She's an activist. She actually has a program. She works with where she takes inmates, children. They set up a program for them to see their father.

So it was like, she's doing this all throughout the year. This isn't anything new. So she she's educated. She's in the trenches and Southwest and all these other places. Another thing that I also witnessed there was a. Like when I got back to the financial end and what people don't know and why these kids on the corner and they don't, I saw a quote from this guy, uh, I'm gonna look it up.

I wrote it down because I didn't want to forget his name was, uh, Dr. Claude Anderson. He stated up and erased based society, which we live in, right. Race-based society is what you own and control that determines the equal opportunity, rights and privileges. Only control wealth empower. Right? So when I get from that is it's like what black wall street did these guys, uh, empower the wealth and education?

What they do is they empower then, I mean, right now we have so many allies in the world, their predecessors didn't from all different backgrounds, but the protesting that's phase one, now we got to educate and we got to own, and we got to, you know, Get within a system, but don't become part of the machine.

Like those police officers, they were perfect examples of how you get inside the machine. And once you're in a machine, you can kind of control, navigate. And I would say take their, I wouldn't want to overthrow anything because you start talking like that. Now you have to CIA and things like that. And you got to think about, I'll tell you, you get inside machine, you start planning your role inside the machine to fight the machine.

With aggression. I mean, 1985, you saw that one with the move. We don't need that. We can't beat it. I mean, even outside of America, you see, anytime you go aggression against a machine, I mean, it's billions of dollars on that machine. We can't afford a war. I mean, I prefer Rollins anyway, but you can't afford a war against you see, look at other countries, you see videos of a kid throwing a rock or a bomb and you might kill three soldiers.

And then the soldiers kill 3000 people. Wouldn't it. That's the money. That's the machine. You can't beat the machine with aggression. So you got to get inside the machine and you got to navigate it that way. One with wealth in ownership is the reason why I always, you know, preach, get some real estate, get ownership.

That's the reason why sometimes I will post about what I'm somewhere. Cause I'm like, all right. It's somebody who look up to me will look at me a certain way. I get DMS regularly from young guys who remembered me from, from another time ago. And they're like, Oh, I saw you was on such and such. Helped me get my passport.

I'm like, yeah, I got you. Let's do this. Like, that's one of the things that helped me most traveling, seeing the world I'm like, damn like things I thought were luxury. This is luxury right here. Like they didn't have to travel and they didn't even call me the money. The things I thought I had to be educated on what luxury really was, what creating a legacy really was.

I didn't know, at the time. Really that's how I feel like we should attack it, but this isn't a, one-time sit down saying that everything you learned today is going to fix our problems. This is dialogue. That's what this is just to start. 

Abbie: [00:13:07] So I think that the idea of the machine is something that is why I got into this in the first place.

So I started working at a women's prison in Baltimore in 2008. And that was my first entry into the criminal justice system. That's the privilege, right? Is that this was my first entry into this experience and hearing about the trauma of these people who were incarcerated and what they had experienced prior to incarceration.

And then during incarceration and I was working specifically. Bringing resources to the prison for the women coming home. So learning where to take a shower, how to get your bus pass all of these different life skills that many weren't able to gain in prison, which is crazy. Cause that's where we should be.

If we're doing anything there, that's what we should be teaching. But I started there and in speaking with the women who were there and learning more about their story, I realized that I, I saw that machine that you're talking about and I wanted to dismantle it. And so I started working at different criminal justice organizations, including the Bronx defenders, um, which is a legal group in the Bronx, the Vera Institute of justice, the correctional association of new York's, where we were doing prison monitoring in upstate New York.

As I was doing this. And looking at the people who I found most powerful and who had most sway in the conversations about policy change, they all had PhDs. And so I thought, all right, if that's what I want to do, I got to get my PhD. So I got my PhD in criminal justice. And along that path, what you were talking about, I mentioned about six years ago, I started working with a prison based fatherhood program, called fact fathers and children together.

And it was through that, that we started bringing it's a fatherhood program created by a group of life. Men who have life sentences in prison. It used to be at Graterford. Now it's at Phoenix and the first seven weeks are for fathers who are. Coming in and, uh, learning from other incarcerated men about the impact of a father was household the importance of education self-love and self-worth.

And then after those seven weeks, then the kids come up to the prison and they have seven weeks of visits with their fathers. And in talking to the mothers who are bringing their kids up and talking to the fathers and talking to the children. They're all people of color. I there's maybe two white guys who are in the program learning about their experience, both on the outside and the stereotypes of the Denby dad, father, and all of these things that they're up against and really filtered into the research that we have that often perpetuates a narrative of oppression.

Right? So a lot of the research questions that we ask, they just perpetuate a narrative of. Oppression and criminality. And so I started to try and ask different questions, for instance, rather than asking what are the barriers that these men are up against when they're coming home from prison? I would ask how do these men navigate the barriers that they're up against?

Right. So taking this more strengths-based lens and I always had that perspective, I always had that strengths-based lens, but my ability to talk about race. With something that maybe I started really engaging in my first year, in my PhD program, I did a training for inside out, which is a program that was created a temple it's implemented in universities all over the world.

Now it involves college students coming in and taking a class in the prison. Half incarcerated individuals have graduate students, all learning together. And so I did the seven day training to become a facilitator and. There was this moment that brings me so much pain to think about. But there was this moment where there was a lot of racial tension within the group of the trainees.

And one of the nonwhite trainees in the conversation specifically about race was saying, you know, I'm looking around, where are my sisters? Like, where are my sisters? And there's a moment because I had this, you know, like, Progressive liberal white colorblind lens. I said out loud to the group, like, well, why can't I be your sister?

Because I did not understand. And I think that there's so many times that because white people have the privilege to not have to talk about race. We don't know how to do it. And we don't know what well-intentioned microaggressions actually look like. The fact that I can't see the differences is the problem, right?

Like that your experience is different than mine is the problem. I need to acknowledge that if we're ever going to see change. And I think, you know, that goes into the whole, all lives matter issue, but we don't have to go there. And what I really. Hope that this can serve as today is just a example of how we can talk about race openly.

And I storied about this today. Like it's inevitable that white people talking about race because they've had the privilege, their entire lives to not are going to slip up. And so it's important to continue to engage, to listen, to learn, to take fault when it's there. I'm really excited to bring my expertise in the criminal justice formal education.

And I think this kind of flows into, we can go into this now about what is knowledge? Oh, well, I'll just say so from that moment in the prison, when I said the horrible sister comes from that moment, I started reading more and I think it's really important to read things like. No, the new Jim Crow and the condemnation of blackness, and, you know, I can provide a list of books that we all should be reading, especially white people.

But it's when I started thinking more critically about this learning about the concept of colorblind racism, and then engaging in conversations. It's not enough to just read it. You have to talk about it because then you're going to find those moments. Where you, aren't where you need more work, right?

Like even if I'm the most well-read white person, I'm still going to struggle to articulate some of my thoughts, especially to a broader audience that's beyond just my white friends. And so I think that we have to engage in these dialogues and think about what are we bringing to the table? What are our experiences?

And so that flows into this idea of knowledge, right? So there's two kinds of knowledge. There's experiential knowledge. And then there's the formal education of knowledge. I was just talking to my friend Madeline about this. So I have that for me, education. Right. I have my PhD in criminal justice. That means I know data.

It means I know research methods. It means that I've spoken to a lot of people who are involved in the criminal justice system. I have an understanding of some of the issues, but I will never personally experience what it's like. To go through the criminal justice system or to be targeted by the police.

And there has to be a valuing of both that experiential knowledge and the formal knowledge, because like when we're in settings where we're making suggestions for policy change, the idea that there wouldn't be voices in the room who are actually experiencing this is wild to me. So I think I really want this to be informal as it is with you.

And. So often the people that I'm talking to are scholars of color they're people who are involved in the criminal justice world in this formal education and those conversations get siloed. And so I think, you know, you've spoken about how, like, people are going to question, why can you talk about this?

But it's just experience and. Formal education. They all have to come together and they're all valued. And maybe not even equally, I think experiential knowledge is far beyond people with formal knowledge, always have to differ. I 

Greg: [00:21:44] want to touch on that before we go to anything else. When you mentioned a black scholar, that attorney things of that nature, right?

We have a lot of them now we have well-spoken, uh, leaders, things of that nature, but here's the problem. They're not in the trenches. Like a lot of the information that comes to me, I tune in, I know who these people are, the majority of the audience are non-black and then the blacks who do get the hero, I mean, dare not affect it.

As deeply for a problem. There was a time where activism, you had the attorneys, you had the celebrities, they would come and they would, I mean, some of them, like, do you even think of, or when you think of black parents that people want to think about guns? I hate guns. I'm thinking about when Asia go in a neighborhood and they even went on a corner.

I mean, the guy who stood on the corner every day, that everyone looked up to who might've been selling drugs, but they went and got there in the trenches. The celebrities. I haven't seen a celebrity in the trenches for so long, and I wa I was listening to Trevor Noah. Now I'm like, I love Trevor Noah. I'm like, bro, the people need to hear this.

Don't even know who you are like until you get in the trenches. It's like, it goes on deaf ears. You, you educate the non black person or the black person who lives in a certain community, your area, but you guys are going to shrink. There's a guy, Jay Morrison. I love watching his God. I think he's from somewhere in Jersey, I'm thinking like Newark or something, but he goes out and educates.

He goes on a corner educated guy than Atlanta, Georgia jerseys, different street corners. He'd get out there and he's a real estate mogul. He gets out there and the trenches or street corners and talk to these guys and try to educate them and tell them about. Yo, this, this, this number right here. You see how you set these same numbers up this same quota to get this, you got to put this out in this percentage because this person put that or whatever the case may be to map that back, take that same math.

Now, let me give it to you in another scenario, real estate related. And the only thing only difference was the product and the jargon. Please don't get fooled or scared off by Jordan. Want to go to the banks to get these loans, and you're going to get scared off by words. You never heard. Google it, these words mean the same thing.

As words you've heard before and my fingers, and probably like our resources, like we have non-black friends and people who stand with us, the way you help for me is going to trenches is like, look, this is how you fill this paper out. And we have, I mean, not even calling to the auditorium that was going to school yard right across the street from the corner where he's doing that.

Somebody go over to approach like the one who's good. With words, most approach. You want to go over there and tell him, you can always tell a leader is every Peck you'll come over here real fast. I got something for you. Let him here. Well, the cell phone loan, how you get the loan? Oh, would you get denied alone?

Oh, you were discouraging. You want to go back? Do you get discouraged when you're trying to get whatever one you're getting right here and you can't get that product, you found another way. So find another way that door Coles. Like when I was trying to get loans. And I came back to Philadelphia, 2014, there was people were like, Oh no, we can't get that done.

I said, well, that can't be done. And my answer was like, you can't get it done. That just means you're not the man for the job. And I always go to someone else and then started getting my loans again. I'm like, you can't get it done. I'm like, I'm nosing white. Then I started finding more about hard money and things of that nature.

And I started, it started to be more of a flow, but. Don't take no for an answer and don't get scared of jargon. The way people can help out with resources. Don't get scared to get a trenches. I've yet to see a celebrity, like the LeBron tweets start looting. I said, I'll stop buying your shoes or period.

Get out of the Hardcastle, bro. Get down here in the trenches. Like, I don't want to hear that. Like we need leaders. Like I remember like, I'll just see, I remember videos saying like those guys, like Jim Brown and all of them, like. You know, side by side and they're marching with him. I stop being scared, like get a trenches and you're like, come on.

Like, 

Abbie: [00:25:43] well, I think so that actually filters well into, I think it's important to address the definition of race and what race is on the face. Like so critical race, theorists, Lopez, Crenshaw, Delgado, all these people are. Talking about how race is a social construct and you, you and I were talking about this last night, where we were talking about the, uh, existence and opposition, the creation of groups in opposition to each other to create power dynamics.

Right. So black was created in opposition to white. So there's more intro race differences. So there are more differences within the white population biologically than there are between the racist. So the way that we conceptualize race is just how the media and society have constructed race, right? So there are definitions of what blackness means and what whiteness means, and that's not inherent.

That's a social construction. So I think when we talk about race and racial inequality and change, I think that's something that actually gives me a lot of hope, because that means that these definitions are malleable. That means that the way we perceive race is not inherently glued to these certain definitions, but can change over time through shifting narratives.

So I think that when we are talking about change, there's often a feeling of overwhelmed homelessness, right. But I think that that fact alone should. Seed hope that change can happen because it's just about the narratives. It's just about the language that we use around things. It's about how media portrays certain things.

And as we have more dialogue, it's like the reason that I think. In large part we're in this situation today. Like I know many criminologists people who make criminal justice system decisions about policy and practice who are unwilling to speak about race. And so the more that we speak about race and the more that we call it out, that's when we're going to actually see change, because then we're gonna have people coming up who are competent enough to talk about it.

And who are aware enough to see the inequalities? I think often, even if it seems so blatant to you and I about the inequalities, there are certain people who aren't even thinking about it, who aren't even aware. So to bring up a new generation of people who are actually talking about it, not just posting, not just reading, but actually talking about it, engaging in dialogue, being better learning.

That's where we'll really see this. And I think so to filter kind of into exactly pinpointing the things that we are trying to change. I think, first of all, what you touched on is that fear. And a lot of it is that fear of the unknown. You were talking about the jargon. So not knowing the jargon, you're afraid you don't want to get into it.

There's this overwhelming fear of the unknown that the human consciousness has. Right. But we've evolved to survive because of a fear of consciousness. I don't understand this surrounding. That means there's potential for danger. With the fear of the unknown, there's this concept of minority threat, right?

Cause exists on those critical race theorists. And it's the idea that media convolutes race and, uh, crime, so that we have these perceptions in order to suppress and oppress, uh, the outwards. And so I think when we are talking about fear of the unknown. We have to think about, for instance, with police, right due to minority threat, there's been a militarization of police, right?

So people are the policy stakeholders who are making these decisions, have internalized this idea of minority threat because of that. They are then putting resources into police departments and inner cities and communities of color, because those are the communities that they are perceiving to be threatening.

When an officer comes into that department, they're then being indoctrinated with that concept of minority threatened mixed with their already implicit biases that they've been growing and gaining throughout their entire lives. So if they're unfamiliar with this community, the majority of cops who are in districts are not from those districts.

In fact, they have laws against that. If they're unfamiliar with the community, then there's this inherent fear of the unknown. And that's why we see these cops that are so scared. And then that fear of the unknown perpetuates a fear within the community of the police, because then their actions are not systematic.

They're reacting out of fear. And so I don't know how you're going to play this out. Are you going to be a cool cop or are you going to be a cop that I have to worry about? And so I think that when we think about what we're up against, it's really gaining. And I think that's why conversation is so important because it's all about gaining familiarity and you gain familiarity through interaction 

Greg: [00:31:00] yeah.

Through interaction. And it's like, you can't approach things already, uh, looking for a rebuttal, wait for people to hear them out. And if you don't like what they said, I mean, that's actually something for you to build off of something for you to attack like yourself. I don't agree with every day, but it's something for me in my next class.

I'm going to take that. I'm actually going to look it up and I'm going to build off it on my next interaction with either that person or even when I see that person again, I can talk to them in the mail, like, all right, I know this is your view, but would you think it is you can't act off of emotion?

Like I read a Dale Carnegie said if you can control yourself in times of excitement, And happiness and I get overwhelmingly excited. You can control yourself in times of anger and rage, and that's what you, you gotta, you gotta get that even chill in order to actually project, you know, your opinion ideas, a problem.

But we have this thing with the police, right? We have Jeff gentrification all over America and inner cities, whatever there's like this unwritten law, they placed this fear in the inner city is like it's unwritten. No, speaks it out. But. Anything happens to the new inhabitants of the area, police zoom in like the president was assassinated, but the original habitats of the area, same farms occurred.

And it's like, it's cashews is, you know, they don't go with the same, um, the same importance. So what happens is you already have the people in the neighborhood look at it like. You did the police don't value us. Right. You know what I mean? They put more volume on these other logs in ours. Let's make sure that they're okay.

And not us. And it goes way across the border. Like it's the machine. It's not, I mean, I'm not going to just set this up and say black cop, white cop, Asian cop, Latino cop. I seen out there today, some of the people while they're just like taking knee, take any people out there on one knee or whatever, I guess that was their, uh, you know, that was their sign of whatever, standing the gun.

No police officer would take any with them, not one Allah. Like you, you stand behind a badge, you know, that's your family, that's your team. That's where you, you know, you move with. And I was thinking, I'm like, nothing compels you to say these people, like not one of them. These people are right. I'm gonna take a new wheel.

It's not like you get paid a lot. I mean, you can be a garbage man. Have to get fired and probably make more. It's not that it's that sense of pride that they instilled in you. And that the way they. I mean washed your brain to make you feel, you know, when they do the site test for police officers. I know for a fact is a list of question that they asked you.

If you do not answer in a certain way, that goes to, if you have a hybrid answer, that's not situ you know, straightforward, and you think in a situation, a man, you fail. So they already brainwashing from there, but you have to get brainwashed to fit. It is obey. They set the rules, you obey from the police, and then you climb up the chain and the easiest way to control.

The masses, if there's few in control, your leaders who control, let's give a number, say it's 10 of them, right? But then there's tens of thousands of us. I'm only giving small numbers, right? How can 10 people control tens of thousands? I'm gonna make each and every last one of you feel like you're different from each other, and I'm gonna go groups and subgroups within that.

And that's how I can control you. I can make you feel superior to that person and you make this person feel inferior to that person, but, and that's how you control the masses. Now we're at a time now, like if we're going to band together, don't fade off. Once all this goes away, you banded together. You showed, you can band together.

Now it's time the bed, not on aggressive legal. You see what I don't over the aggression against the machine. You learn these skills. If you want to help the inner city community, those young guys that was out there putting the middle finger up, like they were alienated, showed them the resources, like show them.

I want to see the attorneys. I want to see the politicians. I want to see the celebrity. I mean, what do you think these huge platforms I want to see them touch the people. Not from Instagram, not from Twitter, get out there and touch the people. Those people protesting, Dan and trenches. They're touching the people.

People come from different areas of Philadelphia. They're touching the people. Now let's all get together, touch the Pete and get that celebrity, get that person they look up to and then go touch the other person that they they're out there with every day to day, look up to and tell them what to do, lead them to water.

Like literally lead them to water. 

Abbie: [00:35:21] But I think the problem is that the police are forced to do too much right now they are tasked with being mediators. Like if you are in a domestic violence situation, if you're in a fight with your partner, you call the cops. If you want your kid removed, because they're annoying you, or they're being disrespectful, you call the cops.

You get hit by a car. You call the cops, you get shot, you call the cops, your car breaks down. You call the cops like there's too many responsibilities. And originally the police were constructed in London, in the 18 hundreds to be of the people they were constructed to be for and with the community. And over time, we've seen that.

Move away from being guardians to being warriors. But, uh, I shouldn't say that they haven't moved away from being guardians to being warriors. Been that now they have to be guardians and warriors. And that contradiction is not only confusing for the officer, but it's confusing for those who have to interact with the police.

Because so many of the fathers that I interviewed when they were like, how do I navigate talking to my children about the people who can at the same time take and save their lives. We really have to think about the purpose of police. What do we need them to do in COVID in the time of COVID, there has been a significant uptick in shooting and shootings in Philadelphia.

The shootings in Philadelphia have increased 15% since the same time period last year. And so there is a public safety need. There is a need to address crime, but is it the police that we need? I don't know. And I think that we need to think critically about this. And often now there's a lot of stuff on data-driven policing, predictive policing, proactive policing, which is trying to stop crime before it's potentially happening.

And a lot of this is driven by data. That's already influenced by racist policing tactics. So those who are seen as the ones who are probably going to commit crime based on data that data's already skewed. So we need to think about, should police be proactive in trying to stop harm before it's happening or is that ultimately more harmful in general and thinking about.

If we need someone to respond to crime, who should it be? And should there be sex of different kinds of responders? And I think so. I think, I don't think police should be the ones. If there's not a gun or a weapon involved, I don't think police should be the ones coming to a domestic violence incident. I don't think police should be the ones coming to.

A mental health crisis. There, there should we need more resources? And I think now we're seeing like such a call for divestment. People are talking about divestment. Divestment is just the opposite of investment, right? So divestment is taking funds that we would funnel into policing into other community resources.

And so we have to really think about what is, what is the purpose of police? 

Greg: [00:38:38] You know, you're obviously like a parent, no matter what their child did, like, you know, what did they do? Why did my child did it? Because they just that's what the system is like, what provoked the police officer to do it? Come on, you know, they did something wrong.

It's you got to punch. Somebody has to be the sacrificial lamb, maybe this police officer, and maybe he has to be the sacrificial lamb to show the other police officers slowdown, rethink how you address things. 

Abbie: [00:39:05] So two things, I think one. I think it's problematic that we have to have prison as the reason why someone would not act that way.

Right. I think the fact that I would be out of fear of being incarcerated, why someone would act that not act that way and not because they think it's wrong, inherently is problematic. And so we have to address why someone might not think. Or might think it's justified, but just don't want to go to prison.

I think the other thing too is when we think about punishment, first of all, what is the purpose of punishment? What is the purpose of incarceration? We know that incarceration does not deter there's a millions. Well, no, there are a couple of studies that show that incarceration does not deter the individual.

From recommitting once they were, are released and it doesn't deter other people from committing. If, if incarceration worked, if prison was a deterrent, we would not have crime. We just wouldn't. But it doesn't. So what is the point of incarcerating? And I think this is what we really need to think about when we're thinking about all right.

So the officer that killed George Floyd and these three other guys. What is going to be enough to feel like justice has been served, but also create change. What is it that we can put forward that will satisfy people and also make sure that this doesn't happen again in the future. And I don't know if they can necessarily be that one action that creates those two strands, but I think that we really need to think about.

Ways of punishment and purpose of punishment. And at one point tarring and feathering was the way that we saw retribution. And then we evolved to think that doesn't work. And then we created incarceration two decades ago or two centuries ago. Then we need to now evolve to understand that that doesn't work.

What is enough. We have to expand our minds to think what should punishment be and what is enough to satisfy the people. And also like, what is the end game here? Like what will it take to stop the protests? Not that I'm saying the protests need to end, but what is it that will satisfy people? Is it just those guys being charged or what is it that will let us feel like change is actually happening.

Greg: [00:41:36] For me, I think it's just not those guys being arrested. Like I said, arrested doesn't mean you're getting convicted also on top of that, the problem doesn't stop with them being arrested. I mean, these things built up, they had this regular, so now we have to, like I said, we people have to band together.

And when I keep mentioning this machine, I mean, we're speaking of the system, the government, the things, the powers that be that. That we obey the entire system wheel Bay that guides our lives. Most human beings have to be guided as far as not offensive. That's just the way it is. Now. We have to put new rules into play, to obey, and the way we do that, we have to have activate and then cultivate the people and we have to get them out there.

You gotta get in the trenches. I mean, I can see it time and time again. Um, I don't, I just don't see it. I see so many people just. Not the protesters. They're out there. I'm talking about these people, these huge platforms. No one was going out there. Like majority of people are seen out there today are from a lot of use that I saw.

Like there's certain, you know, looking at us, they're all in neighborhoods. I'm like, yeah, you're from the neighborhood. I'm so happy. You're here. Not looting. They were just out there. You can see the anger in their faces towards those police. They were out there. I mean, I just was compelling. Like I actually wanted to just grab someone I'm like, where are you from?

I want to come talk to you. Like, like I see something new. I see it in your eyes. Like, where are you from? And it's not enough of that going out there, where are you from? Like, who are you? Right. You know, what are you good at? Like, who are you? Because they don't understand that. And that's. Go further. Like it's not just about the protesting and these police officers are rusty.

I mean, the problems inside the community is deeper than that. I mean, this is what causes us to react, but now after we react, how do we go to phase two? Phase two is being proactive. Start getting beneath the surface and hitting these things to empower the people that's most effective. It happens. It happens now, this is what caused the reaction.

Now we'll go proactive and phase two 

Abbie: [00:43:47] in thinking about what you were just saying, like, who are you? What are you good at? That's this is why conversations are so necessary. This is all my work is qualitative, meaning that all of my research is based on interviews and field observations, and actually being with people and learning about their stories.

And so often in my interviews, people are like, I've never asked these questions. Like when I was asking these men about their experiences with the police, because my whole dissertation was on how policing impacts fatherhood in Southwest Philadelphia, black father had specifically, when I was interviewing them about their experiences with police, they were telling me they were like, you're the first person that I have told this to.

It is so important to. Not only uplift the voices of scholars of color, but just everyone. Like, we need to hear the experiences and value the experiences of everyone. And that is how we build familiarity. Like when we have police who are unfamiliar, they're not going to be inclined to act respectfully. I said this the other day in my story, like if someone cuts you off.

And you don't know them. You have this armor of your car, right? In this metaphor, the armor of the badge, someone cuts you off. The reason that you get angry when someone cuts you off or does something crazy on the road is because you immediately go into fight or flight, your fear in your life. That, that incident just almost killed me.

Right. And so I immediately go, my nervous system is activated and I immediately go into fight or flight. And so. As a police officer, right. You're entering a dangerous situation and your life may be taken in certain situations. So I get cut off. I'm pissed. I'm pissed because I'm scared. I'm go up and I'm about to curse this person out.

And then I realized it's Billy from down the block. And instead of going off on Billy, I'm like, Oh, Billy, like, what the hell, man? Like, why did you do that? And your tone changes immediately that familiarity, that understanding of who this person is, what their story is. That's going to be the incentive to change interaction rather than like, I would much rather police officers.

Not kill people, not harass people, not because they're afraid to be put on camera, not because they're afraid of being in prison, but because they actually respect these people. And I think respect is gained through familiarity. To some degree 

Greg: [00:46:30] I can agree. Familiarity is definitely like you get out there.

Another thing police officers get on insurance is like, who are you? Right? No, no, don't run. Let me do like, you know what I mean? Like. Find out who these people are, find out like what's the deal or whatever, like familiarity. I can, I can agree with that. I absolutely agree with that. I like that personally, I like to touch the youth is like, they're not tainted and you can attack it right there.

Cause it's like, even if they do choose, you know, the wrong path at a certain point, or they never do something, something always clicked with the youth smart. Like what later on? Like, cause that's what happened with me. He was like stuff that I just. Learn younger from the families and my parents. It was like later on in life, it was easy for me to just get my stuff together because of stuff embedded younger.

So even though I didn't apply it immediately, it was later. So this shouldn't stop here. We should actually, you know, make this a regular thing, reach out to the right resource and say, how can I get involved? And to court, like actually go somewhere, not give money, actually go somewhere and get involved in help.

What resources look for resources, ones that aren't even a given at the time, figure out what's not given right now. What's not out there. What would I need if I was in issues or talk to somebody who wasn't used, what would you have needed? This is what I would have needed. And then we get together and put these things into play.

Abbie: [00:47:59] Yeah, I think so. A lot of people are saying, all right, you're talking about all these things, posing, all these questions now, what, and this is always for academics, especially, this is the question that we always fear because we're like, well, we're just educators. Right. But I think it's important to think about what you're seeing in the media, in social media right now, at least what I'm seeing.

There's a million places that you can donate money to. If you want to do that, and we can share resources. There, there are a bunch of programs that you can, uh, volunteer with or petitions you can sign. But what I'm going to say right now, and it might seem so simple and you might be really frustrated with this answer, but.

Just talk to your friends, talk to your family, talk to the people around you about these issues. And we can, as Greg was saying, entering phase two, being proactive, we can have another conversation where we actually come together with some solutions, but. For me, I think conversation an openness, a willingness to set aside defensiveness in conversation and a willingness to learn.

That's when we're going to create change, I'm getting to the place where I'm a police abolitionist. It's really hard when you want to dismantle the system to also at the same time, figure out what to do within that system right now to make it okay for the people interacting with it today, tomorrow this week before we dismantle the system.

So it's hard to say where our resources should go. I think people need to take one part of this, right? Whether it's policing, whether it's. Empowering the youth, whether it's figuring out what you're really good at and then teaching other kids who might not have those resources like real estate, what that is pick that one thing, because it's so overwhelming.

There are so many parts that need to be reformed and transformed. I want to get away. I keep using it because I've been indoctrinated to use it, but I want to get away from the word reform because that just creates another cycle we need to transform. So. There are so many things that need to be transformed and it can be incredibly overwhelming and we can feel just go into a free state, right?

Like, I don't know, there's too much to do, so I'm just not going to do anything and I'm going to watch real Housewives. Right. People just freeze. And so I think that pick a lane, like pick that one thing that you want to really feel passionate about and go after it, learn about it. See what organizations in particular to that.

Thing is what you want to focus on. I think it's all interconnected. So you're one thing, even if you're like, I don't feel like that's enough, that's going to impact the other things. Everything's a snowball effect. So pick your lane and just try and find all the resources about it all. And I can help you, like.

If you have that one thing you want to work on prosecutorial discretion, you want to like the way that people create charges, that's your thing. Or if you wanna work on police accountability, or if you want to work on just these little facets of the criminal justice system that are so racially.

Controversial. I think it's important to pick that one thing and Ben dive into it and please don't let this just be a trending hot topic. I don't want another bushfire in Australia to then take us all there. And we forget about this. And if you can forget about it, that shows your privilege. So please continue this conversation.

Past this time someone asks. And I think this is a good question. A lot of people seconded it. Uh, how can we help engage with different communities and get in the trenches without coming off as a white savior? I'll let you take that one 

Greg: [00:51:58] on an ally, finding our lie. I mean, a true, true to life Allah, like my friends, they come with me.

I'm an ally fun ally ask questions, you know, before you give answers, get to know people. No, don't just go dive right in. And it's, you know, like you have the answers, find an ally and that's how you go in and not seem like you're, you know, coming in like a lie savior, you have to find an ally and go within and find a right ally.

I mean, like there's certain people, like you have people in the community, they're not gonna listen to them. Anyway, you have to find the right allies, get the message out there and find programs with people that have strong presences in those communities. And once they see you there, truthfully leaving trust you in order for them not to consider that way.

And you, you gotta earn trust. Even with myself, I'll put it on a black guy going to another black neighborhood who, I mean, like I'm young. I moved back to Philadelphia, 2014 to Northville every, but I moved in like, North North Philly. Uh, and first going there, I had to earn acceptance. I'm not from the dock, not from the neighborhood, but I look just like the guy who's doing whatever, whatever his businesses, it was across the street.

I look like him. So he's like, what are you here for? Like they said, it looked like, are you setting up shop? So what I had to do was the same way you got to earn their respect and you got to earn. You know, you probably to interact with them and to do that, like, I would come in and Hey, what's going on guys, go home at eight.

Once they noticed, they were like, Oh, he doesn't move like that. He's like, he just lives there. Like he's actually, you know, a citizen just living in, after that, their respect people started sweeping in front of my house. Legit sweat in front of my house every, uh, every few days. And then I remember Tom coming home.

I mean, windows were down, left my phone in the car, woke up the next morning and couldn't find my phone. I'm like, fuck, it's my phone. So, so my windows were down and a guy saw me looking for my phone. One of them, like they gave me their phone, let me call my phone. It started ringing and he started dying, laughing.

They're like we watched your car. They made sure they watched out for, they looked out for me. The nation owned, broken my car. It was like a big joke or whatever. And had I not earned it if I were to just everyday looked at them, like, look at them, doing, doing their dirt over there and just right off of my bike and not interacting with them, like interacting with them without putting myself right there and actually sitting on a porch every day with him putting myself in danger.

I gave him a level of respect. Hey, what's going on guys? Same way 

Abbie: [00:54:45] you got it. Yeah, but that's also like going right back to that notion of familiarity, right? Like they became familiar with you gain them the respect. 

Greg: [00:54:54] Yup. And again, familiarity, uh, I had to earn it and that's really all you get in there with, uh, people.

Abbie: [00:55:02] It's also an important distinction between the like colorblind notion that we're all the same. I think that applies to this idea that we're all the same inexperience. But really there is a level of similarity between all of us in terms of the emotion, reaction, empathy, compassion, fear, these are things we all experience.

And so I think if you can acknowledge the difference in experience, but also the similarity in terms of like just those natural human instincts and reactions, then. Like when we say like, those people like go into the trenches and help those people, like we just, we have to be transparent. Transparency is key.

So if we're talking about like, who, who are we trying to help? Those who are oppressed people of color in communities that have high levels of unemployment and violence? Yes, their experience is incredibly different from mine, but I also know that they feel pain similarly to me, although I'm sure on different levels, they laugh similarly to me.

And when we understand those deep and Nate similarities, that's where we can connect. I think that's the other thing too, is like, If you don't look like me, like, you're just saying like, you are a black male, so you're able to connect on that very visible level. At least there's that one thing, if it's me going in, I can't connect like that.

So what is the one thing that I'm going to find that we have similarities across, that we can relate to each other with and then build from there? So I think it's just understanding those. Those deeper levels, similarities. And I think that's what fuels this like us versus them. Racism is a lack of understanding of those similarities.

Like if there's there's this documentary that I really suggest to a lot of people called white, right. And it's on Netflix and it's about this Muslim woman who goes in, she's a journalist and she goes in and she. Basically immerses herself in the alt-right movement. And he's interviewing all of these guys.

And so many of them who are anti Muslim, who are white supremacists, have never interacted with a non-white person and their interactions with her and their ability to connect and feel familiar with her and be able to find those similarities ultimately by the end of the documentary. Mad dudes that she interacted with actually ended up dropping out of the movement because they were like, well, I like you.

And you represent to me these people who I'm supposedly against that doesn't really line up anymore. And so it's really about finding those connection points and engaging in conversation again like that is where we see change. So I think the two things that I'll leave off with in terms of moving forward.

And I think, again, we should have, if people are interested, we should have another time dialogue, maybe talking about that phase two more, but I think a conversation conversation, a willingness to let go of defenses in conversation, especially for white people. Just being honest with yourself, like, what are your intentions?

Where are you coming from? Listen, learn if someone calls you out, because you said something stupid and he probably will say something stupid. Like, let me be your sister. Then take that as a teacher. Well, moment don't get defensive because you don't have going back to that very first point. You don't have that experiential knowledge.

We always have to defer. So don't be defensive because that defensiveness again is a display of a. Feeling that you know, better, which you don't, and it also shows your privilege that you don't have to think about these things are experienced these things. So conversation with a lack of defensiveness drop your ego.

You don't have to prove that you're not racist. It's more, it's seemingly more racist to be defensive and not listen to try and prove that you're not racist. So open up. Keep engaging, even if you get called out, engage again and learn, but alter, alter yourself. Take that lesson, engage again with the new information.

And then the second thing I'll say is really. Pinpoint that part of the justice system, that part of racial injustice that you're seeing, what is it? What little thing, because that little thing that's gonna spread, it's going to have a wider impact than you think. So really drilled down into the one thing that you really feel passionate about because it can be incredibly overwhelming, as I said, and then focus on that thing.

And again, I can help find resources about specific things. If you're interested. I'll 

Greg: [00:59:56] put myself out there on purpose. Right? Exactly. As you did it for people to react, right. The information so we can have the conversation. So you're already willing for people to negate you and then handle it properly.

Have those conversations in a family, like a lot of people in the inner city right now who moved here from the suburbs. I mean, I have a friend who, from the suburbs, her family and their neighborhood, the one black kid that wasn't as a school, he was adopted. So data. And then she came to the city and it was like, she has a main, maybe 60% of my interactions were like friends and whatever.

You're kicking machine, like Monday Robin from wasn't likeness. So now she got to go back home. So I'm like, you know, I don't know what your idea of it is, but let's talk about this. These are my interactions with these people that you just never saw before. So it was like you got to go home and report back to the suburbs.

I mean, suburbs take up majority of America, uh, suburbs and rural areas. Cities are very small. You got to report back to the suburbs. So I mean, even at hate that that is out there, I mean, or lack of understanding, sometimes it's not, Hey, often it is, but go out there, report back, talk to your family, don't get angry.

Don't anger them. Be real strategic in how you deliver it. And you got to get back out there as well to people who come from the suburbs into the city. You gotta be able to talk to your family as well. I mean, it's going to be an ongoing thing. The machine is big. Remember can't attack it in one hour and 30 minutes.

The machine is big. 

Abbie: [01:01:27] Yeah. I think the thing que to think about is when you're having a conversation with your family and just like this conversation now don't expect them to change in that one conversation. If you have never spoken to your family about race or it's a touchy subject. What you're saying, Greg, like ask questions that will strategically force them to think about certain things more critically and just kind of leave it, like clamp the seed and then come back to it again and then come back to it again.

And then eventually I think there can be a shift, but I really think that if you go into that first interaction, thinking that you're going to come out with a changed mind on the other side, That's not going about it, right. This it's a process, changes a process. And I think that that's something that's frustrating that we're seeing now is people want change quickly and I want change quickly.

And I think if you have the right people in power, it can happen at a certain time. But I think that, uh, or at a certain speed, but again, it's a process. It's a speed. It's not an instant again. Just try and be strategic. Engage in these conversations over and over. I put myself out there because I want people to engage.

I want people to not only think about these things, but start talking about these things. And if you don't feel comfortable yet talking to other people, talk to us. Oh way to 

Greg: [01:02:58] plant the seed first, come with a smile. All right. Is delivery. And as saying, mom, dad, or brother, Hey dad, what's your interactions like with, uh, the black community?

Like, you know, like. Like, how do you, have you ever interacted? Like, do you have any friends that are black? Uh, what's your interactions? It is theater interactions. If they say something and told you, Hey, take it all in. Oh, so how did that happen? How'd that make you feel drill questions? Let them spit it all out.

Yeah, I get it. And then you, you heard about what if this, cause I remember that time I was with subsistence. Give them your examples of your, the way you were somewhere in Southern. Yeah. Cause my, you know, my friend, you know, such and such. This occurred. So what do you think, what do you think? And keep baiting them?

Yeah. Be a therapist. Almost let them vent and then throw those little, you know, Henson. You know, cause I had this interaction. I'm just, you know, I'm, I'm asking for understanding. Yeah. Let them talk, let them talk. Let them talk. Let them talk. She getting more out of them playing a little bit more each time.

Abbie: [01:04:07] Thank you so much for participating in my critical conversation with Gregory Coachman. I really appreciated Greg. Discussion on how to uplift the community from within and the importance of asking kids what they want to do this idea of cultivating agency, as a means for social mobility is something to one from episode five spoke about as well.

How we can't assume we know what's good for a community or an individual, rather we need to ask and respect the differences in desires across each individual. Understanding that communities are not monoliths, but made up of unique individuals with unique goals. And we have to provide resources that support those goals.

I also hope you found it helpful in thinking about how to have difficult conversations with those who hold opposing views. I think it's so important to remain curious and ask questions. As Greg noted, you can't expect change to occur just through one conversation. You may be can plant the seed for change, but change is a process that occurs over numerous conversations and those conversations have to be in spaces where those who hold opposing views feel safe, too.

Rescue themselves and feel heard because that will likely increase their willingness to listen. If we expect to be heard, we have to give that same respect. As Greg says, we have to get in the trenches and get proximate to those who are different from us in order to understand their context. So often we demonize individuals without interrogating the systems and contexts that brought them to their beliefs while it's important to hold people accountable.

For harmful actions or hurtful beliefs, we must also turn a critical gaze to the systems that guide and influence perceptions. Next episode, I'll be speaking with Dr. Andrea oils about police community relations and the importance of location in these interactions. How place plays a role in the exchange.

We also speak about how both police brutality and interpersonal community violence are effects of racist practices and how it is possible to condemn both. I hope you'll tune in. Expect new episodes every other Monday. And don't forget to subscribe rate, and please leave a review. I really look forward to reading your feedback.

I'm Abbie Henson, and this was critical conversations.