Policing Blackness in Suburban Spaces and Beyond with Dr. Andrea Boyles

This episode features a critical conversation with Dr. Andrea Boyles, visiting professor of Sociology and Africana Studies at Tulane University. Dr. Boyles is also the author of two books: You Can’t Stop the Revolution:  Community Disorder and Social Ties in Post-Ferguson America and Race, Place, and Suburban Policing: Too Close for Comfort. In today’s episode, Andrea speaks about how place impacts police encounters, specifically for Black folks in suburban spaces, and how, in order to understand the extent of the tenuous relationship between police and minoritized communities, it is necessary to examine the cumulative and escalating officer-civilian interactions that often occur prior to a police shooting.  The conversation touches on why policy change is imperative for holding systems accountable and creating a more equitable society and concludes with a discussion on how police brutality and interpersonal community violence are both outcomes of the same racist practices. Andrea spits fire in this episode and I strongly suggest having a pen and pad handy.

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Transcript

Abbie Henson: [00:00:00] Welcome to critical conversations. My name is Abbie Henson and I'll be the one conversing with our guests. And I also serve as an assistant professor in the school of criminology and criminal justice at Arizona state university. After the killing of George Floyd, my social media blew up. I kept seeing posts and reposts and stories all about criminal and social justice issues.

However, much of what I was seeing were just. Flat words that lacked voice and depth and nuance. And so I wanted to create a space where those words could come alive. I wanted to engage in dialogues with people who had actually been impacted by the criminal justice system, whether through their own experience research or both, I felt this was the moment to think critically to examine the complexities of our system in place today.

And to figure out how to move forward in a way that allows for equity and true justice. So I started hosting live webinars, both in an attempt to have the audience be active participants either by raising their hand and joining the conversation, or by contributing a question to the chat box and to also build a sense of community and togetherness in a time when we were.

So isolated through quarantine. So all of the episodes that you're about to hear on this podcast are converted from those lives streets. And while it can be really overwhelming to think about how to change a massive system, that seems so ingrained in the fabric of our society by participating in these conversations.

And yes, You just listening to this podcast is participating is where we see true change beginning. Hey everyone. Thank you so much for joining me in this critical conversation with Dr. Andrea Boyles, visiting professor of sociology and Africana studies at Tulane university. Dr. Boyles is also the author of two books.

You can't stop the revolution community disorder and social ties in post-Ferguson America, as well as race place and suburban policing too. Close for comfort. In today's episode, we speak about how place impacts police encounters specifically for black folks in suburban spaces. We also speak on the importance of examining the cumulative and escalating officer's civilian encounters that often occur prior to a police shooting.

Lastly, we get into why policy change is important and imperative for holding systems accountable and creating a more equitable society. So I hope that you enjoy this episode feeling engaged and please continue the conversation once the episode is up. 

Andrea Boyles: [00:02:56] So for starters, I am Andrea Boyles and I am a native St.

Louisan. I am a huge proponent, obviously of social justice, um, much of my work centers around. Or centers rather the experiences of marginalized people, how I came into this work is because I, myself occupy categories of marginalization, I myself have experiences of being a minoritized in quite a few different ways.

And so it is in that space. That I have found my life's work. So I am currently I'm visiting as an associate professor of sociology and Africana studies with Tulane university. I am obviously an author of two books. More recently, UC press books. You can't stop the revolution community disorder and social ties and post-Ferguson America as well as.

Race place in suburban policing, too close for comfort. And more importantly, I'm very community engaged. I don't want to leave that out because that matters even in the academic work that I do, it is very important to understand that I'm community centered because I had to rely on community in order for me to get to where I have this.

Place of success that you speak to standing on the shoulders of so many and it, that conversation, this discussion could go so many different ways because I can think about that racially, all the shoulders that I stand on, you know, and advances that have been made so that I could come along as a black woman and someday have these opportunities.

I can have that conversation more. You know, directly, you know, again, dealing with my mother and other family members who were very sacrificial in what they did and making sure that what few opportunities were available, that I was able to capitalize on them. I can have a conversation about my neighborhood, you know, the folks in my community who at times, even when we were in the most dire of circumstances, sort of.

They stepped in as a village, we often talked about, you know, these village relationships, so to speak and having to rely on other individuals. So there have been many people along the way that have been, um, black folks, particularly they have been very instrumental at least. Helping me to arrive at a place and having the confidence enough to pursue graduate work on into my profession as a doctor, a scholar, a race scholar, a scholar, in fact of many things.

And so, um, for that, I am very grateful. So 

Abbie Henson: [00:05:35] a couple things, the first thing I want to say is I love that. Well, Love is a strange word, but I appreciate that you use the word minoritized because I think so often we think of this as a noun or an adjective, even just, you are a minority and we accept that on face value when there's a reason for that.

Right. And we never think about that. And so I, I really appreciate that you made it a verb. Right. You are not just a minority. You have been minoritized. And I think that framing is really important for people who have not experienced that, who just accept this minority majority dualism. Right. It didn't, it doesn't just exist because it's there, it exists because we create systems that.

Divide in that way. So I really appreciate that. The second thing I think is really important to know is that I think again, I want to say, I love, I love that you said it takes a village. This is something that I've heard repeatedly actually across. Many of the people that I've had on the podcast. And I think the individualized responsibility narrative is a hyper privileged narrative.

And we often don't think about that either, right? Like in order to advance in certain realms of the world, you need that community. And I think if you don't need that community, you're in a very privileged position. And so I think that. It's it's important to acknowledge. I think so often we, we live in such a, a superhero society where we only focus on the big names.

I saw a post recently about this and, Oh, it was on MLK day. Um, talking about how we idealized. And put on pedestals individuals without thinking about all of the people that are working with them to create change. It's not one person it's an entire community like you're talking about. And so I think all of these, the shifts in framing that you're bringing forth with what you're with your statements is really important just to set the scene to this conversation.

So thank you. 

Andrea Boyles: [00:07:53] Thank you. Thank you. 

Abbie Henson: [00:07:55] Yeah. I want to go into one of your, the book about Ferguson. You speak on how interactions with police are cumulative and escalating, right? So we have these big events that are shootings or murder and. We focus on those. But as you've said, Eric Garner, when he was being attacked by the police, he was saying, you all are always trying to get at me or whatever he said in that way, we have people who have been stopped 40 times have 40 traffic stops before.

They are actually murdered. So there's an escalation in, uh, an accumulation. And I think when we think of police brutality, we're so focused on that final event, but what we really need to put our efforts towards is everything that happens beforehand. So I'm wondering if you can talk a little about how you came to that, finding what people were saying and just bringing forth your expertise on that.

Andrea Boyles: [00:08:55] So, yes. While I talk about these cumulative experiences, that is something that yes, I flesh out and you can't see my book, you can't stop the revolution, but something that I actually found and expounded on initially in my book, race place in suburban policing. And so what I discovered in having in-depth interviews with individuals there emerged three forms of contexts in which.

Participants were having with law enforcement. Um, one is that I was seeing a theme or at least a pattern of vicarious experiences and what I say, vicarious, meaning indirect sort of, you know, these secondary experiences that are internalized. As if primary, I mean, when I say internalized, meaning they're indirect contexts by virtue of stories passed down across generations of black folks, you know, um, from family members and things like that.

Folks witnessing, witnessing, or hearing a learning of things, you know, from friends and associates in their neighborhoods, you know, or, you know, across various places. And so these were experiences that all of my participants. Had had, um, and experiences, even beyond that, that I was understanding more and more that black folks were having generally speaking.

And so that can even occur watching TV, you know, all of this footage that we're. Dean over and over again from one murder to the next, those are bi-curious experiences, you know, that the black community takes in. And so they internalize those as if they are experiencing them directly. They are carried right.

These stored experiences. So the other two were involuntary. Those are the imposed directly imposed experiences that participants were having. Police. And so black folks were likelier to have, you know, in addition to the vicarious experiences, black folks would, because we're talking about this a cumulative process, right?

So in dish, in addition to vicarious experiences, there were black folks disproportionately having these imposed contacts. With the police compared to white populations and even more so for black folks who were poor in poor, existing, in poor communities. And that I saw increasing, particularly when we talk about, because much of my work has occurred in the suburbs, particularly I've been especially interested in suburban police and experiences because much of what we have.

Learned about those encounters, oftentimes have centered urban space and black folks don't just live in an inner city. So it's been very important to identify and sort of think about what does this mean when black folks are existing across urban lines, so to speak, what does border patrolling look like?

Not just when we're talking about the global South, but what does border patrolling look like for black people? When they cross out of inner city space into suburban spaces? It is in that, that I was discovering heightened sense of involuntary direct meaning direct contact with the police and happening for black people.

And it is also in that space where I was able to learn, or at least see or reiterate previous. Assumptions of race in place affects with scholars, me, Hannah, and ponder, you know, where they're the increase of racial threatened. Those kinds of things were emerging. I mean, I could see that, you know, it was becoming, even as black folks were having these, having more direct encounters, even across those borders, you know, with police, they were also increasing in the severity per participant.

So each participant was also. Not only talking about the numbers of encounters that they were having with the police as they entered and exited their communities into quote unquote white affluent space. But they were also talking, uh, talking about how they were increasing in severity. Like each time each encounter.

Progressively got worse in terms of brutality or misconduct generally. So yeah, so none of these things, you know, we, we have these unfortunate, devastating incidents, you know, um, where black folks are being killed and encounters with law enforcement every so many weeks, every so many months, every so, you know, and none of these are occurring by virtue of.

Isolation or not happening in a back-end they're happening on a long-standing history of a cumulative experiences that worse than for black people in severity, which each increasing or each additional contact that they have with police be that stemming from vicarious experiences. On to involuntary, which are the direct experiences, the third voluntary experiences, which are often when police or actually requested, those were likely are to take place with white populations.

Police were likely, or to, you know, show up in white communities or encounter white. People were, they were likelier to ask for them. And so it was quite contrary, at least when I accounted for the black experience, 

Abbie Henson: [00:14:26] a couple of questions. First of all, the point about the border crossing, I think is really staggering.

I had never heard of that term and I think it really makes sense. And. Even, so, you know, you want to take the metaphor all the way there. We think about the wall trying to protect those on the inside. And so even if you live on the inside, but you look like those on the outside, you're still gonna be criminalized and stigmatized.

So that's a good point. I'm I'm curious. Why did they feel, so the interactions that were becoming progressively worse, was it. Worse with the same officer over and over, or it was just different interactions that happen to become progressively worse. Why was there, why was there this escalation 

Andrea Boyles: [00:15:18] in that.

And instances where people were living in there in the community, they tend to have the same encounters with the same officers, you know? And so folks start to kind of learn one another in that sense, or at least. There is a stigmatizing of not only by virtue of race, but even for individuals who may have had previous experiences with the criminal justice system.

And so they were then further stigmatized or, you know, further surveilled. You know, um, this idea of black masculinity, right. And what does that mean? And people sort of being surveilled by virtue of what they're wearing. So in some instances it was about the folks having a known encounter with the criminal justice system, um, meaning they had been previously under some kind of criminal justice supervision.

In other instances, it didn't matter if there, or if there was criminality. It was the fact that these were individuals who were living in a community that were routinely being surveilled as if. You know, there is this idea that even if you've not even if we don't, you know, sort of suggesting, even if you have not done something, you're going to be proactively policed in  in anticipation that you wield something.

Right. And so folks were being proactively policed again, which is something very, very different from. You know, oftentimes it happens for white populations. And so this familiar Arity, or at least this assumption, these very stereotypical assumptions and ideas about blackness, what that means and this, um, constructing of behaviors attached to that, or these ideas, these longstanding ideas about blacks.

Masculinity or even women, you know, even when it came to women, you know, these ideas about, you know, just the devaluing of a person based on their social location, you know, and the idea that they're not worthy of protection, but worthy of policing, they're not to be, you know, revered in the sense of, in a human sense.

Um, but rather sort of idealized is a perpetual threat in some way. And in a perpetual threat, even. And they're very, or, or even by virtue of their appearance, the way they wear their hair, the way they wear their pants, the way they, you know, the music that they're listening to, where they gather, you know, those become places of suspicion.

And so it's in that, that it increases individuals have reported increases. 

Abbie Henson: [00:18:08] Got it. Yeah. I think something that I often think about is. And something that I think is important, especially right now, as we're seeing Swift, you would hope Swift changes in policy with the turnover of the president. I think something that's important.

And I was posting about this recently policy does not change outcomes. It is cultural internalization of change that creates. Change in outcomes, just because the emancipation proclamation removed the slave label. There was not an internalized change in perception of black folks at the time. And there's never really been a change in perception that perception has persisted.

And I think why blackness has become so synonymous with threat is that it always has been in America. It didn't become this through the media. It has always been this, and it's been just been shown through the media. And so I think something that's important is thinking about how to change cultural perceptions of blackness, not just changing policy, because even if we change policing structures, even if we train officers, there's still going to be a cultural belief.

And I think one of the main things about that. And I think this goes to what you're talking about. Very much a lack of familiarity, right? There's there we live in a segregated society that prevents a lot of co-mingling interracial co-mingling and often co-mingling that. Does occur is in more privileged spaces of college or school or jobs.

It's less on a more casual level. And so I think with this lack of familiarity, especially for those who aren't in those spaces who are just gathering on the corner or whatever there is. Threatened the unknown. And so how do we create more spaces outside of these more prestigious spaces for commingling, for gaining proximity for increasing familiarity?

Also then a question and I'm assuming were most of these officers white? Yes. 

Andrea Boyles: [00:20:37] Yes. There were. A couple, um, at least in the first community where I initially conducted a policing project, they were certainly, um, mostly yes, white. There were, um, predominantly white officers also, obviously in Ferguson, particularly the Ferguson PD were, um, predominantly white, but there were.

In both circumstances, some, a couple just, you know, um, very minor. And we can almost essentially say it felt like none based on the experiences that black folks were accounting for, because the ones they were accounting for were all with white officers. So yeah, when we talk about policy, I'm sort of, you know, inclined to think about policy is on one hand, certainly.

There are some disadvantages, you know, associated with policy. But I think that there are also advantages to having policy I will say is that policy absolutely does not guarantee that there will be equity and equality and justice for black people or minoritized people generally. But I am also. The mindset that while it does not guarantee, you know, what it does is it provides tracking or record for tracking and spaces to hold people tangible space by which we can hold folks accountable for a number of things.

And so, um, or the lack thereof, right. Is in that same space, you know, Think about, you know, one of the participants or at least one of the organizers in you can't stop the revolution. Um, a leader, protest leaders stated black folks were being killed on paper. They're killing us on paper is what she say it in that meaning.

Even if physically folks don't show up, you know, they're killing our people on paper. The idea that the entire justice system, this notion of law in and of itself, you know, one after the other, these are sort of these contractual arrangements that are embedded in policy and that supposedly later become practice.

And that is happening formally. Yes and informally as well, but I think it is important again, to note that even if we talk about, you know, folks becoming familiar with one another people, you know, learning to engage with diverse populations in the broader culture, and how do we arrive at a place where, you know, people are engaging in these very humanitarian ways apart from having to be told or forced to do that by virtue of policy.

I believe that that in and of itself requires or percentage of education. And so education in and of itself is even happening by virtue of policy. So I don't think that it benefits us to not have it. I think what it does is it allows us an opportunity to look at these contractual arrangements for folks who are in these positions of accountability, to be able to document truth, to be able to document deviations.

And facts in the same way that it is used to kill our people is what had been stated. It is also possible to have agency and use that same space to account. For instances where we're provisions have been made or opportunities have been allowed or provided or offered or afforded, or one is probably the better word forward too.

Have our people in our communities live. We can't even teach. As we have recently seen black studies and black courses, ethnic curriculum that even came under fire in the outgoing administration by virtue of signature, right. That the need to put policy in place to say that. Is reverse racism, so to speak or is unpatriotic, so to speak, to be able to have even teach or lecture or offer diversity training, you know, those kinds of things.

So my thought is that if it was that crucial to put on paper, to say to mandate eraser and the persistent invisibility of truth, Of black history of indigenous history and all those kinds of things. Likewise, there's something to that. It matters that we also put on paper that it is mandatory. It is absolutely necessary.

It is part of humanity. It is of utmost importance to make all of these things very visible, to make people's experiences, very visible, not half these kinds of things. Thoughts, these kinds of needs, these kinds of issues, these kinds of disparities, the variations and overlapping patterns of, um, in humanitarian actions and, you know, on long standing torture sort of exchanges that people have had to continue with that needs to be out front.

In bold letters. And so in every space and the effort to have that, not continue needs to also be highlighted and front as well. And so I think that again, when we talk about this familiar Arity that you were speaking to, I think that that. In many respects comes through opportunities to educate, and there are overwhelming spaces by which that can occur.

Now, the key is, is will people be receptive to it? Much of what transpires I believe has a lot to do with ignorance. The fact that people have. Been ignorant and many have decidedly remained ignorant about what it means to live in a spirit of humanness and the idea of being so incredibly powerful and privileged in such a way to where you can shrug educational opportunities, where you can sort of dismiss and in a spirit of dismissing.

Fantasize and in the white imagination, recreate a whole other kind of narrative, one that is suitable. Um, and one that makes best for maintaining the status quo. And so it is in the manipulation of education and the persistent allowance of that and doing that informally and the encouragement and embracing of it, even in the formal sense that has been support.

For fear and ideas of threat when it comes to, um, black and Brown people and black and Brown spaces. And the fact that I say black and Brown spaces in and of itself has much to do with policy continuing of. Dominant or white majority power populations dictating by virtue of power, economic power, economic, and political power, and otherwise who can be where, when and under what circumstances.

Right, 

Abbie Henson: [00:27:58] man. I don't want to like relisten to that a hundred times and take a bunch of notes. I mean, yes. A million, yes. Something I was just thinking about while you were saying that. And I think the idea of agency in this, the fact that you're saying there's, there's a way the power that individuals hold to shrug off.

That educational opportunity. Yeah. 

Andrea Boyles: [00:28:26] There's a lot to unpack there and I will start with, you know, um, with saying, honestly, I've been moved along quite a bit as with quite a few other members folks in the black community, um, and moved along in the sense that. You know, we have been as a community contending with, well over 400 years worth of justifications and explanations for why our community is deport disproportionately keeled.

And I can sort of expound on that in a thousand different ways. But the reality of it is that, you know, There's probably not one single explanation that could be offered after a 400 year history of excruciating pain and dismissal of black life for my people. So I think that's an important place for people to understand, or at least process and take in.

There's no new justification under the sun. And, and that there is also no new brief form under the sun. Um, even as having talked, um, and previously discussed the reform, um, it, it has become, 

Abbie Henson: [00:29:47] um, increasingly apparent. 

Andrea Boyles: [00:29:49] Absolutely. It has become, if not centuries ago, you lose the desire to come to the table.

So the, you know, the red tape and all the political inroad that people have time and time again, that emerged and show up. It has been crystal clear. Even in spaces where there may have been a willingness to varying degrees to have conversations, to sort of break bread and, you know, think critically about these things.

The system rears itself, every single step of the way to make clear that the power dynamics, the way in which these agencies, these departments and these things are structured, that that will remain true. Regardless of how many lives are suffered, regardless of how many deaths occur, police and police departments, or not somehow happening and evolving and occurring on an Island.

They are attached to governments. Governments who they, whose policies they enforced. They are the enforcers of those policies. We previously talked about. Policing in and of itself. Did not begin as a meet at the table, kind of arrangement for black people in us history. That's that's that has never been the case for black folks.

And so to be 400. You know, years later and then say, Hey, let's kind of keep talking about it. Um, not so much. And then there's pick and choose this right. In terms of how black folks, um, you know, or even invited to these sort of arrangements, picks and chooses, meaning oftentimes it's about who's going to be amenable the black community and it deliberate effort to sort of engage with folks who are perceived to be the more amenable folks of the black community, which also even in the same sense.

Um, continues to criminalize and sort of identify black. Other, other black folks is deviant. So even in that, it's still denigrating this idea of finding quote unquote, the more meaningful, meaningful black folks that can come to the table. And the idea behind it is that they will be perhaps more open and more reasonable.

Well, who gets to define what's reasonable. See these kinds of things matter to the black community who gets to this take what's reasonable for humanity that has often been lost for centuries on a black community. And who gets to decide when and where and under what circumstances should. Law enforcement or should these very discriminative agencies arrive at a place of forgiveness or arrive or, or have somehow found themselves in space of, um, credibility?

I will also say that, you know, policing in and of itself have not been safe for police. We're talking about the black community. But what I have found is that policing in and of itself as an institution has not been that protective. And even that supportive is often advanced even for its own law enforcement officers.

We have all over this nation, black police organizations, black police unions. That exists because even within Khaleesi, in and of itself officer's or minority heist in such a way to where they themselves are not safe. And I think that is worth also thinking about and understanding because folks are asking people non-commissioned black folks on the street to feel safe.

And engaging and trust law enforcement in a way that officers don't sales often can't do. And that's after having trained in the Academy with them after having gone, you know, spent time on the beat with them. And so how can you possibly, at least from where I sit accounting for all these things, there's no logical way to settle one for the other.

And they're both taking place. And so it is in that. That I think this idea of somehow somebody's going to drop a piece of legislation that would automatically just do away with all these decades and years of experiences or exchanges between law enforcement and the black community. I think that it's going to be.

At this juncture of time in this police militarized environment that has become so incredibly embraced and accustomed to it has become the automatic go-to. I think that that is going to, yeah, that presents quite a bit of conundrum to say the least. Yeah. Yeah. It's contradicting. Yeah. And it is illogical.

It deserves these changes. Must be transformative. And I think as it stands to continue to think about those things, at least in that way keeps us, or keeps folks in a comfortable space of being superficial about what is possible and what is not, or at least what they're willing to do and what they have, um, perhaps on inadvertently decided to not do.

Abbie Henson: [00:35:32] Right. So then the question becomes, and this is the question that I get. I've been a prison abolitionist for a long time. And so the question that I always get is what do we do with, you know, the most dangerous and in this situation, it would be. What do we do to keep the community safe? And so I think first of all, it's important to recognize that the majority of people who believe that the policing agency or our criminal justice system keep them safe are often the people who are not interacting with the criminal justice system and just have an idea of what the system should be.

Because of what it touts to be, but it's not actually the reality of what it is. And so I think that's important to recognize is for many people who are such strong proponents, they are not interacting directly as a. Person on the other end, I would like to 

Andrea Boyles: [00:36:32] add also, um, is, you know, it's important to also know that in my experience, it is not necessarily been black folks per se, to draw the line.

In many instances, I have witnessed, understood police the culture in and of itself to draw the line in the sense that either you are totally fine. For police or you a totally against police. The culture in it of itself has in many respect, decided for black folks and for the broader population, that if you are critical of law enforcement, then that by virtue of criticizing means you're not for them.

They have drawn the line. Um, it's been quite the opposite. What I have learned with participants in my work is being quite the opposite. Okay, black folks have oftentimes, even though. We can sort of go to, um, you know, think about NWA was if the police and those kinds of things, right? Those kinds of statements and things that are used and so forth in that sense, or this notion that black folks hate the police or don't like the police.

What I actually found is that black folks hate racial lines. Policing black folks hated discriminative policing, black folks hated the kind of policing that left them dead or left their loved ones, criminalized on the other end of, you know, needing assistance. That's the kind of policing that black folks have hated.

That's the kind of policing. When we think about NWA, I talk about that in my book that, you know, the idea of putting them on trial. That's what that spoke to, which is a very different conversation. Compare to the line that the police culture draws to say, if you are critical of us, if you say things against the Academy or things against me, need the police Academy things against law enforcement, then you are by virtue of that.

You are anti-police. They have drawn it lie. And so I've seen that time and time again. And I think that's important for us to also know despite the fact that black folks have been disproportionately victimized, it's 

Abbie Henson: [00:38:41] such a huh. A hundred percent. That was something. So in my research, I was, I did interviews with 50 young black fathers living in Southwest Philadelphia.

And this is a hyper surveilled community by police and. 90% of the respondents, even though not required for the study had an arrest record. And something that they often said was, I know not all police are bad. I have to teach my kids. You know, they're not your friends don't trust them, but if you need them, call them, like there was this, you know, the idea that police have to be both guardians and warriors is not only problematic for officers, but also problematic for the people who have to navigate.

For themselves and teaching their children how to engage with people who can both who have the power to take and save their lives. And so I think that is such a good point that it's, even if you're critical, it doesn't mean you're, anti-police in the idea and, but it is important. I think like, F the police is not F Bob, the police officer from such and such district.

It's F the police system. The system is just lacking in that term, but it's about the system of policing and the idea that any individual who's a part of it is just perpetuating it by not challenging. It. So, absolutely. And so I think that's a really important distinction. It's the idea that there is this system that is perpetuating these racialized practices and those who lean into that are problematic.

And so exactly what you're saying. I had so many of my respondents who are saying I've had great interactions with such and such. He keeps it real. He like, even if he is going to put you away, he's going to do it for a good reason. He T he treats us like human beings, but I've also had an interaction with this other guy who just, cause I was sitting on the stoop, he wanted me to take out my braids and he was touching my hair and all this stuff, and there are different ways.

And so there's this. Immediate defensiveness of pro-police where any criticism is seen as this overarching negation of their existence or wellbeing. And, and it's not that. And, and so I want to go into this idea of. The condemnation of interpersonal community violence and police brutality, because as we're talking about police and this notion of safety, I mean, Philly in this last year has had its most violent year in.

Very long time. It has, I think over 500 homicides at this point. And that's predominantly black male victims. I think it is important to recognize that there is violence happening, right. There is interpersonal violence that makes other community members feel unsafe. They have to navigate not only the police, but also beefs in their own community.

And so I think what's hard is we've seen. Through the responses to BLM often the counter-argument is, well, if black lives mattered, then we wouldn't see this black on black crime. But as you. Saw in your research, that's very much not the case. And so I would love for you to talk about what you saw community organizers speaking on and how the condemnation of this kind of crime, as well as the condemnation of.

Police brutality against black bodies can co-exist. 

Andrea Boyles: [00:42:33] So, you know what I've found or at least, you know, some of the things that emerged with you can stop the revolution is that one of the earlier organizing calls for organizing it, didn't just center. Um, the need to combat. Police brutality. It really, and truly went after the more prominent things that were.

You know, um, posing threats to the life of the black community, which included interpersonal neighborhood violence. So that earlier call of action. I captured, I was standing there and the idea that it sort of. I hadn't at least noticed or seen quite bit of attention paid to it. It didn't too much go anywhere.

Uh, it mattered because inside of this quote, unquote black lives matter response. So to speak this idea of black lives mattering, the notion that the black community in our lives have been excited. Bendable, so to speak. I mean, you know, on so many levels across so many crisis all the time pre pandemic, you know, it, it had been used against the community.

The, the idea that black people are only concerned when it comes to police violence, anything else that may pose as a risk or hazard to the black community, they don't really care about, like that had been leveraged. You know, th the idea of such had been used as space to sort of. Strategically unravel the black resistance.

And what I found is right away in the beginning of the Ferguson uprising that got called out and we hadn't much talked about it. And so my work has really pushed to sort of address that issue that people can exist in neighborhoods and communities, where there may be disproportionate crime. Or, you know, um, interpersonal neighborhood violence taking place and be working actively to combat both one is more provocative than the other.

It makes for a great story is what I am continuing to understand. It makes for a rather great story to constantly see black folks running from tear gas and rubber bullets to constantly see black folks, you know, um, this idea of black. Folks are taking to the streets, rioting that fuels and furthers, um, these very stereotypical narratives that black folks coming together pose a threat that longstanding racial threat ideology that has always been used to sort of muddy and.

Plate and make ambiguous the black plight and the role of the majority white culture, the dominant culture in being the proponents and perpetuaters of it in doing so then the idea likewise has been, or at least the move has also been. To use interpersonal neighborhood violence sort of as the, you know, evidence right.

Is evidentiary, so to speak of black folks or, you know, killing themselves and that kind of thing. Why, or if you're not mad here, if you know, it sort of becomes, um, I, I guess it's what I'm saying is that it is this, uh, projecting. This strategic and systemic projecting of criminality on the black community and identifying black folks as deviance and is deviant somehow.

And in a process, maintaining these very stratified systems, these very disparaging systems that work to perpetuate or fuel this ongoing circular kind of crisis dynamics for folks in the black community, that in and of itself. Creates atmosphere and space for interpersonal neighborhood violence and not addressing that right.

Deliberately making a point to not address it, but using it rather as space to continue to unravel and sort of snatch the bottom out of the movement and the attention that the movement calls to have holistic and again, historic discrimination and denigration to the community. Right. I 

Abbie Henson: [00:46:55] think, uh, something that's really important to know.

And you had mentioned this in previous conversations we had had is police brutality is an effect and interpersonal community violence is an effect and the cause is the same seat. Right? In a lot of my research and what I've come across is interpersonal violence in communities, especially marginalized and minoritized communities is the outcome of lack of opportunity is the result of racist practices and red lining.

And. Low education. And in, in a previous episode with Juwan, uh, a colleague of mine, he was saying that he was talking to his barber and she used to be in the drug game. And he was saying, you know, all these drugs they're causing all this violence. And she was like, well, no, when drugs are saturated, there's kind of less violence.

But when it's. When people are fighting for it when they're minimal resources, that's when we see violence peaking. And so it's this idea of a lack of opportunity. And so we have, it's, it's funny that these things are posed as opposing when really they're cut from the same place. 

Andrea Boyles: [00:48:17] And there is something, and there is something to be said about the fact we live in a nation where.

Young folks have greater access to guns than they do quality education. You know, those kinds of things. See, these are the conversations that need to be, had the kinds of conversations and changes. That don't occur, just sort of overnight, right? These are long standing again, effects of having existed in a nation that has been lackadaisical and really dismissive, so to speak of the death and the widespread.

Affects of discrimination, at least in a sense of being, having to reel with it 400 years later. I think that it was clear from the beginning, what was meant to happen because if that had not been true, enslavement would not have been institutionalized. So there was a very deliberate purpose at the onset of us history for why black folks needed to be, um, objectified and treated as less than human.

There was a reason for that, but the idea. And the notion that somehow all of the effects of such, you know, and racism in and of itself, those same, you know, um, ingredients that went into institutionalizing, enslavement has dissipated is less than true and less than disingenuous. And so I think we should start there and sort of think about those things moving forward and have these.

You know, um, at least as part of our working, working in our psyche, when we think about org process, the fact that kids can again, get access to guns quicker and for easier in many black communities than they can to fresh fruit and vegetables, then they can. Quality education, then they can to decent clothing and decent housing, then they can to those kinds of things.

So when we talk about black folks, you know, working a counter interpersonal neighborhood violence and doing that alongside of, you know, um, police brutality, both is happening. Only one gains attention with the other being used against it. And that is strategic and, um, and delivered bridge, at least from where I sit 

Abbie Henson: [00:50:36] a hundred percent again, it's, it's all this.

Reframing and the exposure to certain narratives that get privileged and they're privileged by privileged people. Um, I think we've covered a lot. I think that people have to listen to this episode 10 times over to really have it all sink in, but something that I would encourage listeners to do is to think more critically about nuance and to recognize that blanket statements are weighted.

And we need to pull those threads apart. And I think if we really want change, yes. Holding systems accountable through policy is absolutely necessary, but it's also listening to conversations like this, opening your mind to different ideas and listening to people who have dedicated their lives to these topics, to educating others.

You know, when you're, when you're looking to educate yourself on these issues, turn to the people who want to do it. You know, don't ask just anyone turn to the people who have dedicated their lives such as you, and I'm grateful for you. And thank you so much for being here. On this and having this conversation with me and thank you again, and I look forward to our next conversation.

Andrea Boyles: [00:52:09] Thank you.

Abbie Henson: [00:52:13] Thank you so much for participating in my critical conversation with Dr. Andrea Boyles. I thought Andrea's point on border crossing was so important. The fact that the perceived threat of blackness increases across space in a paper written by renowned sociologist, Elijah Anderson. He described jogging in a predominantly white neighborhood and a truck pulling up beside him.

The driver yelled go home. To the driver Anderson's blackness was encroaching on a quote unquote safe white space, Andersen contemplates, whether his blackness led the driver to believe Anderson was from the quote unquote, ghetto. Often we think about how the intersection of race and gender influence others' perceptions of safety and danger.

However Andrea's insights show how placed plays a role in shaping perceptions as well. I also really appreciate the focus on the volatility of daily police encounters. As Greg mentioned in episode seven, the anger and tenuous relationship between police and communities of color is not solely due to killings and shootings, but are rather built over time through both direct and vicarious daily negativity.

Experiences. I also thought it was important to note that police brutality and interpersonal community violence are both outcomes of the same racist practices. The ways that those who challenge black lives matter ideologies by citing quote unquote black on black crime, as some display of apathy for black lives are blind to the fact that the condemnation of police brutality.

And the coexisting condemnation of interpersonal community violence are both truly condemning the racist practices that insight and support the violence on both ends. It is important to note that while individuals need to be held accountable, the critical gaze must. Beyond the policies, systems and structures that inform individuals actions.

Next episode, I'll be speaking with Dr. Yasser pane on our traditional false definitions of resilience. Dr. Payne's work focuses on street oriented, black folks, and posits that drug dealing gun violence and other hustles are in fact sites of resilience. As they are asked to further one's survivability. He challenges the ways resilience is held within traditionally white middle upper class value systems and expands our definitions of resilience to acknowledge the impact of systemic violence and limited opportunities for mainstream success.

He describes the history of black and white wealth and unpacks the existent dynamics fueling the racial hierarchy in America. So I hope you'll tune in. Expect new episodes every other Monday. And don't forget to subscribe rate, and please leave a review. If you enjoy this, I really look forward to hearing your feedback.

I'm Abbie Henson, and this was critical conversations.