Can We Cure Violence? with Dr. Fredrick Echols

Today's episode features Dr. Fredrick Echols, Chief Executive Officer of Cure Violence Global, a violence prevention organization. Prior to becoming CEO of CVG, Dr. Echols served as the Director of Health and Health Commissioner for the City of St. Louis and was a physician in the U.S. Navy. In this episode we discuss:

• the reason for the uptick in violence during the COVID-19 pandemic
• why a "for us by us" approach to violence prevention is more effective than traditional criminal legal models
• how our social context impacts our health
• how to reach equity in the health, wellness, and safety space

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Transcript

Speaker 0    00:00:01    The initial response from one institution was, well, we weren't here when it happened. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I had to remind them though, even though you weren't here, it, it has become a part of your organization's brand. Right? And so Jones, her, her lived experience in the 1960s, 1970s, are receiving subpar medical treatment in the basement of your facility. They still remember that.  
Speaker 1    00:00:23    Please listen carefully.  
Speaker 3    00:00:27    Welcome to Critical Conversations. I'm Abby Henson, your host and an assistant professor of Criminology and Criminal Justice at Arizona State University. This podcast is a space to learn from change makers and experts on racial, social, and criminal legal issues, and to inspire further dialogue with friends, family, and community in order to impact culture and ultimately achieve equity and justice for all. I hope you enjoy being part of these critical conversations. Now let's get into it. For this episode, I'll be speaking with Dr. Frederick Eckles, c e o of Cure Violence Global, a violence interrupting public health approach to safety. Prior to his work with Cure Violence, Dr. Eckles worked as the director of Health and Health Commissioner for the City of St. Louis, where he led the city's Covid 19 pandemic response. He also has worked as the chief of Communicable diseases for the Illinois Department of Public Health, and as a physician in the US Navy.  
Speaker 3    00:01:32    In today's episode, we ask, can we really cure violence? We discuss why a forest bias community approach can be more effective at decreasing violence than traditional criminal legal approaches. And what this kind of model actually looks like. Cure violence has been implemented at over 10 cities across the world and could be a promising alternative to community safety. I'm excited to hear your thoughts, so please be sure to send any, you have to cc office hours@gmail.com and I encourage you to continue this conversation with your circles once the episode is up, because it's through conversation that we can start to create change. I would love for you to speak first because you were really at the forefront in seeing the impact. I think a lot of people don't understand the correlation between the uptick in violence across cities and covid. And I'm wondering if you can first kind of dig a little deeper into why you think we saw an increase in violence, um, during the time of the pandemic.  
Speaker 0    00:02:42    That's a great question. So, back in the seventies and eighties, they, you know, physicians, public health professionals, started looking at violence as a disease. You're exposed to someone who is infectious or someone who is, uh, active perpetrator of violence, and that's what you've been exposed to, that it, it becomes a learned behavior. So we learn based on our exposures and our experiences. And so when you look at certain populations in the United States, that's exactly what we see. And so when you see, in particular where you look, if you look at communities that are disproportionately impacted by firearm related violence, a few things that you'll typically see are areas of high poverty, low access to health and social services, low economic opportunities, and just a sense of hopelessness within those communities. And so, when you have communities that have suffered from decades of disinvestment, and they've essentially been ostracized in some ways because of stigma, you know, they've become hopeless.  
Speaker 0    00:03:38    And so when someone is hopeless and they're struggling to just survive on a daily basis, that creates a really dangerous situation, a really dire circumstance for individuals. And so we are really adamant about making sure that people understand, uh, violence as a public health issue, cuz that way we're able to address the needs at the very root. And so in public health, we often talk about the social determinants of health. Then what we find is the social determinants of health for other conditions are very similar for violence. And so being able to implement an evidence-based approach that we can evaluate and study and improve over time is really important. And that's what the public health approach to violence, um, actually does. And so over the course of the pandemic, what we saw was, you know, mitigation measures. So people think about the stay-at-home orders that were in place, loss of jobs, loss of the economic opportunities for individuals.  
Speaker 0    00:04:27    And so to think about that happening during a pandemic, when the, the baseline for those communities was really dire. So they, people were struggling and to live and keep food on the table, keep roof over the head, then we tell them to stay at home, a lot of them weren't able to manage the toxic stress and issues that were already and made the situation much worse in a lot of our communities. And so, oftentimes when people are pushed into conflict, what they typically do is they resort to those behaviors that they've been exposed to. And so in our communities that are dis have suffered from investment, a lot of the exposures have, have, have been related to violence. And so, and that's exactly what we saw in a lot of communities across the, across the, the United States and across the world.  
Speaker 3    00:05:09    Yeah. So we see this uptick and yet we see a decrease in shootings in St. Louis once cure violence is implemented. So can you speak to the cure violence model? There are three kind of main ways that the program works. You detect and interrupt potentially violent conflict. You identify and try to change the behaviors of high-risk individuals, so those who are more likely to engage in violent behaviors. And you attempt to mobilize the community's impacted by violence. So how potentially violent conflict is detected and interrupted?  
Speaker 0    00:05:49    Well, one of the critical pieces of cure violence model is hiring the right people. So hiring those individuals who are deemed to be credible, credible messenger. So those who have credibility in the circles that are responsible for majority of firearm related, um, events in, in the community. And so the only way to do that is by betting the individuals and having a really detailed screening process where we make sure that we're hiring the right people. Um, cuz it's important for us not only to hire the right people who, individuals who are credible, but they also have to be suitable to the model. So they have to be, uh, willing to learn, open to training, open to being coached, and, and have a good, good reputation in the community as well. And so though we, we spend a lot of time on the front end before actually doing any work, just vetting individuals, doing the, the pre-screening and screening process.  
Speaker 0    00:06:39    And so by, by hiring those individuals who already have established credibility within those networks, oftentimes there's information or intel that is being shared in community that most folks aren't aware of. And so by having an end in those circles, we're able to get wind of information before events happen, or even, you know, if an event occurs, we're able to get information about that event and who was responsible so that we can take the necessary steps to deescalate the, the situation by engaging the right people. And so typically, you know, that's the victim. If the victim survives the victim, and then the victim's, uh, networks working with them to not retaliate. Cuz the other issue that we have is what we call reciprocal reciprocal violence, or in a lot of cases reciprocal, uh, murders. And so that's, that is a huge issue. And so being able to deescalate and implement conflict mediation strategies to really get people to think differently about their behavior and to opt for a more safe option, you know, we engage individuals in the community is without judgment.  
Speaker 0    00:07:39    And that's really important. Cause last thing that youth and individuals who operate in that space want is for someone to lecture to them or someone to preach to them about what to do and what not to do. Uh, we really work to meet them where they are not imposing our own issues or ideals on them, but really getting 'em to just think differently. And so oftentimes it's, you know, not about, you know, whether they're pants or sagging or whether they're involved in gang activity, we just don't want them to shoot. By having the right people we're able to have that influence on them. And so that's for this, for, for the first tenant of the, of the model. The second tenant, when we identify those individuals who are high risk, we engage them in case management services. We have a standardized screening process where we do intake.  
Speaker 0    00:08:19    Uh, and during that time we ask individuals what their needs are, but then we ask them more specifically, what do they want assistance with mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So oftentimes when we say, okay, we'll get a list of things that people, uh, need assistance with, and we wanna prescribe things to them rather than engaging them and seeing what they really want assistance with. And so by giving them the power to determine what they want assistance with, we, we empower them in our communities. And so, uh, and then there's a lot of follow up. So we work with them also, whether it's, you know, getting a G e d, it's getting a, um, a state id. A lot of people don't have state IDs getting into school. Those types of, of things or things that we oftentimes assist them with. Um, but we also help, uh, oftentimes come into contact with individuals who are just struggling with the day-to-day issues such as, you know, food insecurity, not having food for themselves and their families, uh, not being able to pay their rent or their mortgage, uh, not being able to pay utility bills. Those are simple things that a lot of us oftentimes take for granted, but those are oftentimes the tipping point for individuals mm-hmm. To act the violence. And so being able to provide comprehensive wraparound services is really essential to helping people not only survive during, uh, at that period, at that point in time, but how we, our biggest goal is to help change their trajectory over the long  
Speaker 3    00:09:35    Term. Right. So one of the things that came up when you were talking about how there's often in these communities retaliatory violence, I think a lot of people have this perception of quote unquote inner city crime, and they problematize it and demonize it and judge it heavily in its often retaliatory nature. But then I was just thinking about our criminal legal system as it stands, and the retaliatory nature that is deeply embedded in life without the possibility of parole or death row. And how this eye for an eye mentality is viewed as so archaic and problematic and violent in community, but then is viewed as justice in other formal settings. And so that was something that came up for me. The other thing, when you're talking about case management, I think, you know, as a criminologist, one of the things in our field is endlessly trying to identify why people engage in violence.  
Speaker 3    00:10:39    And it always boils down for me, the obvious response is experiences of trauma and oppression. And so when you are seeing that inevitably these high quote unquote high risk individuals are those who often need these services, it becomes very clear why there is violence embedded within certain communities. And those communities are often, as you said, are most vulnerable. And what it means to be vulnerable is really to be marginalized because we know that if we just attempted to change the behavior of the individual without actually attempting to change the context mm-hmm. <affirmative> or surroundings in which the person is a part of, we wouldn't actually be able to create any kind of change.  
Speaker 0    00:11:38    Right. And that was one of the questions that I raised when we started, uh, we're considering the program in St. Louis. So you know, you interrupt the situation then what you put their individual back in the same environment where they've been exposed to violence for years and maybe even decades, and you expect them to change over the long term, that's not going to happen. And so really creating an infrastructure and a, um, by re by leveraging resources in the local public health system to really support communities, particularly most vulner the most vulnerable communities over the long term. You know, one of the phrases that, um, are terms that are, that's used in public health frequently is health equity. And so when you talk about health equity or giving individuals the resources that they need based on their current circumstance, um, it's easier said than dumb.  
Speaker 0    00:12:26    Cause that really means undoing, uh, some of the, the practices that the systems have created. And so even, and for an example of that would be access to health services. So for in, in Covid during COVID 19, the vaccines were, uh, made available. You know, we saw non minority people just coming from everywhere to get the get resources. But then we tried, when we intentionally placed those resources in our most vulnerable communities, we received fla, uh, a lot of black from people across the system. So including health system, uh, executives. And why are you prioritizing black and brown people? When the data showed us that black and brown people were being disproportionately impacted by COVID 19, uh, while, you know, individuals in medium and high level income areas, neighborhood, they had access through, you know, their medical provider's office or they most would have private, uh, medical insurance. And so they had resources available to 'em. Whereas in our marginalized communities, a lot of communities didn't even have a federal qualified health center, even a medical provider. And so really working to save their life was, was, was a challenge. Cause we had to go against the grain that the system had created.  
Speaker 3    00:13:39    Right. So essentially cure violence is providing both services, resources, and mentorship essentially. Right. And so it's expanding networks to individuals who have been in similar situations and found themselves in a place where they're able to step away from the violence. In terms of the interrupters, I guess that's an interesting question is with these interrupters, are they people who have been interrupted themselves or how do, how are they coming to this role?  
Speaker 0    00:14:13    And so when we're talking about credible messenger, so the violence interrupters and the outreach workers who are hired, it depends on the community. So in some communities, the credible messenger could be a football coach. In some communities it could be a pastor or priest. In other communities, it could be Ms. Jones who's on the block every day. In a lot of communities, particular our, our most marginalized communities, uh, a lot of the incredible messengers are those individuals who are justice involved. And so one of the things that really irritated me when I was doing my work in St. Louis was, you know, when I looked at the types of opportunities that justice involved individuals were receiving, there were really token opportunities. So a lot of organizations just wanted to check a box and say, okay, we have, um, justice involved people, we've given them an opportunity.  
Speaker 0    00:14:58    Uh, but then when you look at that at a more granular level, you'll find that they aren't given a livable wage. They aren't given employee benefits or access to those health and social services, but then we expect them to just thrive. And that's not the case. And so we wonder why the recidivism rate in the United States is, is where it is, is, you know, the people aren't properly supported when they're trying to reenters and re acclimate to society. And so we have an opportunity to really help these in the individuals by supporting them. So one of the things that I mandated, um, in St. Louis was that every staff had to receive a livable wage, have full benefits, and the same services that were, that we were making available to those individuals who were high risk needed to be made available to our staff as well.  
Speaker 0    00:15:40    Because when you think about mental, mental and behavioral health services, there's a lot of trauma that occurs in these neighborhoods, right? And so that preexisting trauma for individuals who were, who have been hired, who are justice involved, not only do they have the trauma from their ho childhood of, you know, from being in that environment, but they have trauma from being incarcerated. Right? And then we retraumatize them as they go out and, and respond to, uh, shootings and killings, um, that may happen in the neighborhood. And so we really have to do a better job of supporting individuals. And again, that has to, in order to do that, who holistically and, and really, uh, change the, the way we do it, we really have to undo some of the policies and practices that have been implemented in the United States, uh, in particular, um, remo reducing or removing, uh, stigma around that particular population.  
Speaker 3    00:16:27    I think some people might ask or wonder, what is the difference between a credible messenger interrupting violence and a police officer interrupting violence? And so, can you speak to why you think credible messengers are more effective in preventing violence through these means?  
Speaker 0    00:16:49    I'll preface my response by saying that the cure violence global believes in a system level approach. Meaning that the public safety division of law enforcement has a role, just like the public health department has a role. Um, and so we have to learn how to coexist to really lift the work together rather than siloing the issue and allow, allowing only a handful of, or a couple of organizations to do the work. And so when you talk about police officer, so it all depends on their, the officer's relationship. But typically when people think about law enforcement, they think about government, they think about incarceration. And so there's this stigma even around po connected to police officers and where, you know, they can't necessarily engage and get intel from individuals like someone who is just a friend of someone, you know, trying to get information. And so, so one of the things that we have to do prior to implementing the work is make sure the community understands that the cure violence model isn't a po police informant model.  
Speaker 0    00:17:47    So the individuals who are hired to be credible messengers with violence interrupters, or outreach workers, or even the site managers and site directors are not police informant. Uh, and that's really important cuz those high risk individuals, you know, when they, if they deem that someone is, um, sharing intel or information with the police, not only they become target, but everyone working with them. So the entire site essentially could become a target, and that could be an extremely deadly experience if that were to happen. And so we re we're really mindful of that. And so even though individuals on, on the front lines do not work directly with police on a more administrative level, we do engage with law enforcement to share information about data. Uh, so we can understand how violence is changing, um, in the catchment area where the work is being done and in surrounding areas, uh, so that we can use that information to tweak how our program is being implemented in the, um, in neighborhoods.  
Speaker 3    00:18:41    Are the interrupters that are putting themselves kind of at the front of these potentially violent conflicts, are they armed at  
Speaker 0    00:18:51    All? No. So our, our violence interrupters are not armed. So we really aim to support non-violent approaches. And so that goes to really thinking, um, having people rethink, you know, how they respond to conflict. We do a lot of teaching and onboarding on the front end before the work has being done. For example, all staff will receive at least 40 hours of training at the baseline. And then you have additional, an additional 40 hours for them site managers, site directors, and others who serve in supervisory roles. And then over the course of a project period, we do, we'll do at least four to eight we'll call booster trainings to address issues that come up as the work is being done and to improve the efficiency and effectiveness of the programs, uh, in the communities.  
Speaker 3    00:19:32    I think that's a really important point because I think a lot of the pushback when people argue against the idea of limiting the power of police in preventive or preventative measures is, you know, this fear that without an armed officer, how are you going to be able to go into a violent conflict? And so to see that this is an effective way where it's a non-violent approach, I think is really important. So can you actually, can you speak to the kind of training that you're giving these people? And obviously everyone has their own personality and approach, but what's kind of some of the standardized practices that you guys implement?  
Speaker 0    00:20:15    And so, as I mentioned before, so the 40 hours of onboarding for all staff, which includes our, uh, violence, interrupter reduction training, covers all the basics. You know, everything from how to engage, uh, individuals, um, who may be in conflict to trauma informed care, uh, and self-care practices, time management. Um, cause the other thing we have to be mindful of is, you know, for a lot of individuals, uh, this is their first structured employment opportunity. And so, and also to be mindful of, uh, a lot of, some individuals may not have completed high school. And so, so there's a, there could be a learning disparity among the individuals who are hired. And so we want to make sure that everyone is properly trained to, um, to do the work as efficiently and effectively as they can and without causing any additional harm to the community. And so implementing a trauma informed approach is really critical. Um, but that self-care piece is also, is critical as well. Um, we train them how to vet individuals. So as you know, sometimes there's turnover at sites. And so when you're bringing on a new staff, what does that actually look like? How do we vet their credibility before bringing them on and getting them trained, uh, uh, to, to do this work?  
Speaker 3    00:21:19    How do you vet their credibility?  
Speaker 0    00:21:22    So it's a very intense process. So, um, we'll start those. It's a data driven process as well. And so one of the things that we do is we identi when we identify the catchment area where the work will be done, you know, we'll, um, have our staff, you know, will ask the individual who is part of the hiring panel to say, okay, this is where the work is gonna be done. Tell us where you have relationships and this in this particular area. And then we take them out into those neighborhoods and see if, if their speech matches up, what, what's with their reality in those neighborhoods. And so sometimes it aligns and sometimes it doesn't. And so when it doesn't align, we know that's a problem for us. And oftentimes those individuals are marked as not suitable for doing the work because of their lack of credibility,  
Speaker 3    00:22:06    Familiarity and cultural and contextual competence is so important in these realms. I've been doing a research study interviewing police officers, and the group of officers that I've been interviewing is really interesting because a lot of them, actually, the majority of them are from the neighborhood that they're patrolling. And because of that, they have this way of speaking and engaging and respecting the community that many officers who are from different areas would never be able to have that kind of relationship. And so I think when thinking about the future of violence prevention, it really is important even when we think about evidence-based approaches and the idea of replication mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's great to see that a program is effective in one place, but that also doesn't mean that it's effect, it could be effective in another because nuance around neighborhood is so important, and that goes like southwest Philly to North Philly can be very different culturally, right? And so thinking about that, it's not just city to city, but neighborhood to neighborhood and even sometimes block to block. So I think the fact that you have these catchment areas specifically and that you're looking at the culture and the language and all that in the specific catchment area is really important.  
Speaker 0    00:23:30    And one of the, one of the statements that was made to us recently when we were doing, um, some community sessions in Peor, Illinois was, you know, the community appreciates being involved. And so before us, by us, uh, mentality was goes a long way. I mean, because when individuals are familiar with, you know, it said the, the cultural nuances in a particular area, um, and how people move in that area is really important. Oftentimes, like I say, you have transplants trying to do that work, it won't work because they're not, they don't have that same level of credibility and that same level of awareness that an individual that is who ha who has grown up in that environment has.  
Speaker 3    00:24:07    And so that third pillar is mobilizing the community. So as we're speaking more about the community now, I'm curious to see, so you kind of moved from an individual level to understanding how systems impact that individual and then taking a community approach. Can you speak to that community approach?  
Speaker 0    00:24:26    Right. So the other thing we find is that communities oftentimes want to help create a safer area to live, work, and play, but oftentimes they just don't know how. And so by having team members that are, that they're familiar with, you know, providing them with public education and training on what, um, the model is and how they can have a role even in their home to create a safer environment is really powerful. So it's more like almost a train the trainer model. We train those individuals, they go out, then they train people in the community, engage them, and then as people become safer, it really changes the dynamics across the neighborhood. And what we also see is a changing in a change in how people and which people access health and social support services. For example, you know, we collect data on resiliency for those individuals who are enrolled in our case management program.  
Speaker 0    00:25:15    And so we monitor what services they're referred to and what how they access services. And so early on when we started in the neighborhood, we typically will see those individuals who are highest risk taking advantage of those health and social support services. Uh, because we're actively engaging them, we kind of removing some of the stigma around accessing those services. But over time, what you see is a shift from those who are deemed to be the highest risk to those who have lower risk for acting, for committing acts of violence because those credible messengers have empowered other individuals who have influence in the community to further reduce stigma around social and se, social and health service support. That really helps on a lot of fronts, particularly around the social determinants of health. So, you know, having individuals access preventative health services. So now Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones is, you know, taking care, living a better, a healthier lifestyle. And so a lot of those comorbidities that they would off that oftentimes would even run in their family may be delayed cause of the action that have been taken, uh, by our violence interrupters and outreach workers.  
Speaker 3    00:26:14    Yeah. So you've mentioned social determinants of health a couple times, and I had a guest from last season speak to this who is in the Philly Behavioral Health Department. But for new listeners, I'm wondering if you can kind of walk through some of those social determinants of health and what that means.  
Speaker 0    00:26:31    Short, no. Social determinants of health are, uh, those factors typically, typically environmental factors that influence how we exist in our space or those spaces where we live, work, and play. Many things, uh, that oftentimes are addressed by public health departments include, you know, transportation, like access to healthcare services, access to mental health services, employment opportunities, job skills, trainings for individuals, clean water, uh, environmental, uh, support, uh, services in those neighborhoods. And so, again, oftentimes, you know, when in some of our most marginalized neighborhoods, they're kind of pushed to the edge and not prioritized. Uh, and so we oftentimes see conditions, uh, worsen over time in those neighborhoods until gentrification occurs.  
Speaker 3    00:27:13    Mm-hmm. <laugh>, right? Of course. So what I'm hearing is that there almost has to be a middleman to bridge these services to these populations. And I ask this of police officers or anyone who's engaged in the public, uh, safety field is, is your job to create enough public safety that you're then put out of work? And so I'm wondering, how do we lengthen the reach of health services and the reach of education so that there doesn't need to be a middleman to pull that arm into these communities, that the arm is already long enough that it's implemented and it's there.  
Speaker 0    00:27:55    The goal is always to, you know, put ourselves outta work, especially when we are trying to make improvements in community. Um, I think the reason why man is needed is because of the history of the nation. So again, going back to communities, being the subject of disinvestment, but also being the subject of being exploited over time. So, you know, we think about the medical community, the research community, oftentimes when they need data on a certain population, they go to the most vulnerable neighborhoods and they get, they capture info capture data, then they publish data and then leave the community left high and dry with no, uh, with no support afterwards. And so that has happened time and time again. And even during covid 19, you know, we had to prevent that from happening. Um, and so the trust just isn't that, you know, the, the generations and that, that distrust has been passed down from generation to generation.  
Speaker 0    00:28:47    And so we really have to make sure that the system is engaging the community in a way that is genuine, in a way that is supportive and consistently so not just when we have a need, not just when, uh, there's a priority that or, uh, uh, service deliverable that we need to meet. And they're the ones that help us need it. But even in times of peace, it's really important for us to engage them to so they understand that we really care. And I think that's a piece that the health systems could do better. That's a piece that the academic institutions that could do better. And definitely government, you know, even with, you know, COVID 19, another great prime example, you know, millions and millions and billions of dollars of being, uh, flooded, um, into the local economies. But when you look at where those funds are being placed, you can tell that those most vulnerable populations still aren't being prioritized. They aren't receiving their fair share of support and resources, um, to even get through the pandemic and have a good quality of life afterwards. And so I think we have to, to do a better job of prioritizing our most vulnerable population, uh, to the point where we can really establish trust, establish trust, and, and maintain it over time.  
Speaker 3    00:29:51    I mean, how do we create that prioritization though? If we know that our country is predicated off of inequality and racism, how do we create authentic prioritization?  
Speaker 0    00:30:05    And so as I, as I will tell my staff, you know, our past doesn't have to determine our future, but one thing we have to do is acknowledge the history. We cannot cover it up. We have to be unapologetic about telling the true history of the nation, and even not just the nation, but even in the local community. So for example, in St. Louis, um, some of the academic institution wanted to use the public health department's platform to share information about the research that was being done for, um, the covid 19 vaccines. And, and the development, particularly they were in the development phase, and I refused to let them use our platform. I said, if you're gonna use our platform, you have to acknowledge the damage that your institution has caused into these communities. And the initial response for one from one institution was, well, we weren't here when it happened.  
Speaker 0    00:30:51    Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I have to remind him though, even though you weren't here, it has become a part of your organization's brand. Right. And so Jones, her her lived experience in the 1960s and 1970s by receiving subpar medical treatment in the basement of your facility, they still remember that. Right? Right. And so, um, have, holding them accountable is the first step, but also, again, acknowledging it and then creating a, and that's the way you create a path forward that we know some harm was done, uh, in the past, but we're here, we're genuine, we really want to help. Uh, we have these lifesaving treatments, these lifesaving resources for you, and we want you to take advantage of them. But you know, that acknowledgement has to happen first to really create a better foundation.  
Speaker 3    00:31:33    Right. And so cure violence is, it's important to note that this isn't something that kind of sprung out of the fallout of summer 2020. This has been around for a very long time. However, I would say that the environment and the context is different now in a lot of cities around the nation because of the fallout of summer 2020. And so you just got tapped to be the c e o of this company as we move forward in this new environment. And so I'm wondering how you see the future of cure violence. And you know, right now it's in over 10 cities in the country, it's global as well. Um, it's in Trinidad and in some European cities. And so I'm wondering if you can speak to what you see the future of cure violence to be, and also how cure violence gets implemented in different cities and who implements them.  
Speaker 0    00:32:35    That's a, that's a, uh, a great question. So at the start of my team, what I typically do within the organization is kind of go through every program, every aspect of the organization will fine tooth comb. And so, um, we've really been revamping how we do community violence intervention. We're re revamping, um, our entire curriculum to make sure it's, um, reflective with the most current evidence-based best practice. And we're also making sure that we, um, have a standardized documentation. So that's one of the, that's been one of the big handicaps of the field of community violence intervention, is the lack of standardized data collection and data management. So, you know, and that's a huge struggle for a lot of organizations, but not having that in data management infrastructure mm-hmm. Because we don't have data. How do you tell your story? How do you convey, um, a message that is objective to key stakeholders about the work that you're being do, that you've done and its impact on, uh, on those communities?  
Speaker 0    00:33:31    And so one of the things that we've really, that we're really excited about is the work that we've done in the data management space. You know, we collect over 270 indicators for individuals who are enrolled in our case management program. We issue standardized reports to those, um, organ those governments and organizations that, uh, receive training and technical assistance from us so they can understand what's happening in the, in their communities. Uh, and that also gives them the tools that they need to implement quality improvement, performance management activities to make the program more efficient and more effective. And so that's gonna be an ongoing effort, you know, um, just continuing to do research and evaluation, doing internal reflections on how we do work and how we're, how we can better meet the need of communities, um, is really important to us. And so as we, as we move forward, you know, one of the things that will remain, that will remain true to is, um, uh, implementing a community centered approach.  
Speaker 0    00:34:26    We can be in communities across the world, but we, one of the things that we understand is that there, there's no one size fits all similar to the work that we've been doing in Peoria. You know, going in and giving the community a voice, hearing their lived experience to inform how we develop, uh, recommendations and plan of action for their community is that will continue to be something that we do. Because without the community being front and center and being supported as we, um, even think about planning the work, you know, that's gonna be important to seeing the work be successful and being well received beyond what can be done at the, you know, the elected official level. But in community is where we really need to have the greatest impact.  
Speaker 3    00:35:03    So how did Peoria get, uh, chosen? How are sites chosen for cure violence implementation?  
Speaker 0    00:35:10    I've gotten the question quite frequently lately. And so one thing that we're mindful as well is that not every jurisdiction is ready for a system changing approach like cure violence. So we don't actively seek out communities. So, uh, typically what happens is a local government organization will contact us to get more information and we'll hold several informational meetings or, um, several informational meetings. And then at some point we'll end up doing a, a site visit. And doing the site visit, we do what we call a readiness assessment. So that readiness assessment, um, is really, uh, is a key component to giving us the information we need to determine if a, if a jurisdiction is ready, you know, some of the issues that happen in jurisdiction. As you were aware, aware violence prevention is very political. It has become a very political mm-hmm. Issue. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and so, um, making sure there's agreement within government and expectations are similar across government are really important on the front end.  
Speaker 0    00:36:07    And so those are some of the key things that we do. Then the readiness assessment, uh, and we also wanna make sure that the community is being prioritized, wanna make sure that this isn't, they aren't making decisions behind closed doors and then expecting to push a program or initiative out. And so I've seen that happen in the government space, and it's typically now well received, you know, the, the community doesn't receive it. You end up wasting taxpayer dollars or grant funding, grant dollars. Prioritizing community is something that we look at as well as, uh, the mutual agreements, the across these support agencies and essential stakeholders.  
Speaker 3    00:36:40    Mm-hmm. I love that you're so data forward, um, <laugh>, I guess I would love that as an academic, but, um, do you happen to have any data or collect any data on how often police are called for backup in these interruptions?  
Speaker 0    00:36:58    So we typically, typically the violence interrupters don't call police, right? And so we have to set standards within communities as well so that people will know when to call the violence interrupters and outreach workers versus, uh, the police. So, you know, one of the things that we have to do in initially as well as is build trust. So, so for example, one, one, um, thing that happens in some communities, you know, if you have a, a group of individuals hanging out on the block, so that may, they may be startling for, uh, some individuals. So they'll, they may call our staff, um, to go out and to see what's happening. So our staff will look into it and sometimes it's just individuals playing dice. And so our staff will go out and say, Hey, can you all just kind of chill out a little bit?  
Speaker 0    00:37:39    So Ms. So-and-so, and Mr So-and-so can, can be at peace. And then we'll call, we'll do a follow-up call saying, Hey, they, they were just playing dice. There's nothing going on. And then that also empowers the community to be more engaging. So now that Ms. Jones or, uh, Mr. Jones or whoever issued the call, they may feel more comfortable actually talking to people out in the community, uh, when they have concern about something. And so that's typically how it happens. But our staff typically don't call police. We really, um, try to make sure there's a well-defined line so that there's no perception of our staff being police informants. However, if there is a, an event that occurs in the police or involved, we know when to step back cuz we don't want to, um, overstep our boundaries and interfere with, with law enforcement's activities. Cause they do have a role in maintaining, um, peace, um, in communities as well. And so making sure that we stay within our lane so that we can coexist together is really important for us.  
Speaker 3    00:38:32    How do you define your lane?  
Speaker 0    00:38:34    So we define our lane by having ongoing discussions early on. So just like we have just, uh, meetings with, um, the elected officials, whether it's the mayor's office, city manager's office, et cetera, we also meet with law enforcement early on at the administrative level saying, okay, this is how we operate. How can we create a system where both of us can co both organizations can, can coexist and even support one another to a certain extent, for example, in, uh, leaders in Englewood. So, uh, the staff will go out and do canvassing, let's say late at night. And so they can give a reprieve for some of the, um, law enforcement. So if they're in their car hanging out at the gas station, but if they see our staff coming, Hey, we're canvassing, they can go in, they can really, uh, focus on other urgent matters that may be impacting the community.  
Speaker 3    00:39:17    Right. So are you finding that when you do have those early meetings with particularly law enforcement, that they are welcoming of the interrupters and the idea and the model? Or is there pushback?  
Speaker 0    00:39:33    Um, it's usually a mix, but you know, education is one of our greatest tools, right? And so as we engage 'em early on, we're really focused on explaining how the model works and then we give them an opportunity to raise any questions or concerns that they have. And, um, almost 99% of the time, uh, they're in support of it because, you know, uh, one of the challenges in the law enforcement side is, um, having properly staffed organizations, right? Um, you know, St. Louis, Atlanta, Boston, I mean there's a lot of, uh, even New York, there's a lot of vacancies and they're having difficulty actually filling law enforcement positions. And so they need help just like we need help. But, uh, figuring out a way for us to coexist and really have a symbiotic relationship is really important. I think we've gotten to a place where we can actually achieve that when the work is done on the front end. So we're, one of the things that you'll find about us as well is we don't, we do not rush the process. The process has to take its course and, you know, every jurisdiction position is different. Some are more ready than others. Some need to be coached or handheld a little bit more, or babysat a little bit more than others. But we wanna make sure we're doing our very best as a partner to help, uh, a jurisdiction be successful, uh, in its violence prevention e uh, efforts.  
Speaker 3    00:40:45    When you collect your data, do you have data on whether anyone that you've identified as high risk and have provided these resources and services, whether they end up do engaging in violent behaviors,  
Speaker 0    00:41:04    Um, we are starting to attract that as well. Um, that can be a little difficult, especially, you know, getting that information from, um, personal information from, uh, some of the law enforcement system that, that exists. Um, but that's something that we pay close attention to as well. And that's why another reason why it's important for them, our staff, to have those personal relationships with them. So sometimes, you know, the in, if an individual, uh, has an, an issue, sometimes it may not be the individual that calls our office, it may be their sister or one of the other family members that, that we're familiar with. That's something that we pay close attention to because we really want to make sure that we are properly supporting, uh, everyone that's on our caseload and everyone that's in the community who's deemed to be high risk so that we can continue to lower the recidivism race the communities where the work is being done.  
Speaker 3    00:41:49    Yeah, I think one of the issues with a lot of the public safety spaces is that the only measure of success really is recidivism. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which we know is not and should not be viewed as an individual level measure. It has to do with the level of surveillance of the police. It has to do with whether you have a hyper-vigilant parole officer or probation officer. It has to do with the level of violence in your community. And so are there, beyond recidivism, what are some of cure violences measures of success?  
Speaker 0    00:42:27    Again, there's a lot of metric that we, um, or indicators that we monitor. And so things such as, uh, referrals for services to us that's a success. Again, especially knowing that there's oftentimes a distrust between the community, especially those who are high risk and the systems that provide the services. Um, so monitoring that, also monitoring who's accessing the services. So as we see those individuals who are lower, lower risk actually starting to take advantage of those services, that's a positive impact for us. And as we, as we go back into communities, we actually go back and visit communities to see what the changes are. And as we see the dynamics change in communities, that qualitative, um, data is really, um, um, important for us. And so one example that I have for that would be in, um, in Hondura. So, uh, rough about 10 years ago, um, a program was started in, um, Pamela, uh, Honduras.  
Speaker 0    00:43:19    And, um, at that time, you know, the murder rate was, was essentially through the roof. You know, they were, uh, had situations where entire buses were busloads of people were being murdered just because they crossed the wrong boundary. And so people really afraid just to live in that space. And so you, what you saw was people being sheltered in their homes. So there's no real community engagement. There was no or very limited activity outdoors, especially after five P four or 5:00 PM. And so when we were able to visit, um, a few months ago, we saw that the dynamics had completely changed. So people were hanging out on their doors, uh, on their porches and on their foot stools. And um, uh, we were able, actually able to participate an award ceremonial, a ceremonial that were highlighting the talent of the youth in the community in a community setting, uh, which was unheard of. And so those types of changes, you really can't put a price tag on. And I think oftentimes we try to put a price tag on what, um, violence intervention does. And I think that's important. But when you save lives and you see people actually thriving in the places they live, work, and play, you know, that's something that's invaluable. And I think we can't really put a good, a price tag on that.  
Speaker 3    00:44:28    If a listener is like, this model is amazing, how do I get involved? Or if a listener is like, you know what? I think I could be deemed a credible messenger for my community. How would they go about the process of becoming an interrupter? Or for someone who doesn't have the cred, how can they get involved in cure violence?  
Speaker 0    00:44:52    Oh, that's a great question. So for individuals who are looking for more information on, uh, what we do and how we do it, uh, we have a lot of information on our website, which is www.cvg.org. That's www.cvg.org. Um, and we have our contact information on there as well. So if you wanna submit an inquiry to learn more specific information about a particular component of our model and what we do in communities, we have staff that will be open to having, uh, discussions. The other piece is, you know, if you think your city or your jurisdiction is ready for a program like care violence, please be an advocate. You know, work with your local elected officials, whether it's your al person or your, your mayor, your county executive or your even your, the director of your health department. Uh, work with them to gain the, to let them know the importance of imp implementing a model like this and then have them reach out to us.  
Speaker 0    00:45:41    And we love to, um, have discussions with them as well because we know that violence doesn't have boundaries. You know, it can move from one place to another, but at the end of the day, we want everyone to feel safe in their community, in a place where they spend so much time, place where they want to engage with others. Um, it's really important for them to be able to do so safely. And our goal is to, to do that, but not only create safer community, we also wanna create healthier communities. And we do that by helping local governments leverage the existing resources and services that are already available. For example, that, you know, that's one of the reasons why, uh, the public health departments are typically, uh, at the center of this because they typically have agreements in place for social and health support services.  
Speaker 0    00:46:25    And so we're able to just tap into those preexisting resources and not reinvent the wheel. And that helps ensure sustainability over a long term. Cause we, one of the thing that we also hate to see is, you know, when a program is implemented and then we see positive outcomes and then years down, let's say three or four years, then the program is stripped away, then the community is back at square zero where they haven't defend for themselves again. Um, and oftentimes the, the backlash of the ends up being allowed worse than the, uh, initial circumstance where they were living.  
Speaker 3    00:46:56    And I think that goes back to this idea of how do you create authentic prioritization? And it's not necessarily strictly through policy changes through cultural change. And if you can change culture and social perceptions, then that policy is often longer lasting. Absolutely. Um, and I'm looking at your list of US cities, and I don't see Phoenix on there, so I'm gonna get on it. <laugh>, <laugh>. Um, well, I really, I'm mindful of your time and I really appreciate you speaking with me today. This was super informative.  
Speaker 0    00:47:31    Thank you so much, Mino. We're always valued, every opportunity we have to, um, inform and empower others across the nation and across the world. So thank you for using your platform in such a positive way. We really appreciate that.  
Speaker 3    00:47:44    Thank you so much for joining my critical conversation with Dr. Frederick Eckles. If you're interested in learning about whether cure violence actually decreased victimization in the cities that it was implemented, please be sure to check out next week's episode of Office Hours with Abby and Jowan, because we'll be going through all of the data, all the evaluations, and trying to tell whether this is actually a feasible option. You can find the link to the YouTube channel in this show notes. If you enjoyed this podcast episode, please be sure to like it, share it, subscribe, tell everyone you know, and I look forward to the next one. Thanks.