Step One: Becoming Self-Aware with Dr. Rick Hanson

This episode is step one in the 10-Step Toolkit to Having Critical Conversations and features Dr. Rick Hanson, a psychologist, senior fellow at UC Berkeley's Greater Good Science Center, and New York Times bestselling author. His seven books have been published in 31 languages and include Making Great Relationships, Neurodharma, Hardwiring Happiness, and Buddha's Brain, with over a million copies in English alone. He's the founder of the Global Compassion Coalition and the Wellspring Institute for Neuroscience and Contemplative Studies. He's also the co-host of the Being Well podcast, which has been downloaded over 10 million times. His free newsletters have 250, 000 subscribers, and his online programs have scholarships available for those with financial needs.

 In this episode, we:

• define mindfulness and self-awareness and contrast the two
• discuss the importance of self-awareness in critical conversations
• unpack the science behind self-awareness
• provide tangible practices to becoming more self-aware

If you have any questions or comments you would like addressed in the Live Q&A with Dr. Hanson, please email whatsjustpod@gmail.com. Don't forget to follow Whatsjust on Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn and subscribe to the weekly newsletter to get details on where and when the Live Q&A is happening! 

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Timestamps:

(00:00:00) Defining Mindfulness and Self-Awareness

(00:09:11) Why Self-Awareness is Important in Critical Conversations

(00:12:39) How Self-Awareness Creates Joy

(00:16:26) How Self-Awareness Cultivates Connection to Others

(00:17:18) Horizontal vs. Vertical Self-Awareness

(00:21:38) Self-Awareness and Vulnerability

(00:24:28) Science Behind Self-Awareness

(00:35:13) Self-Awareness in the Face of Adversity

(00:40:09) Tangible Practices to Enhance Self-Awareness

(00:55:29) Three Captivating Things 

Chapters

• 0:00 Defining Mindfulness and Self-Awareness
• 9:11 Why Self-Awareness is Important in Critical Conversations
• 12:39 How Self-Awareness Creates Joy
• 16:26 How Self-Awareness Cultivates Connection to Others
• 17:18 Horizontal vs. Vertical Self-Awareness
• 21:38 Self-Awareness and Vulnerability
• 24:28 Science Behind Self-Awareness
• 35:13 Self-Awareness in the Face of Adversity
• 40:09 Tangible Practices to Enhance Self-Awareness
• 55:29 Three Captivating Things

Transcript

CC_S4_RickHanson_E1_V4

[00:00:00] 

[00:00:00] Rick Hanson: I do not like being pushed around. I don't like being bossed around, including by the reactions inside my own mind. 

[00:00:06] Abbie Henson: What 

[00:00:07] Rick Hanson: you and I are talking about here is the foundation of personal autonomy and inner freedom and the basis of which starts with self awareness. 

[00:00:15] Song: Welcome 

[00:00:20] Abbie Henson: to Critical Conversations, a podcast for lifelong learners who like to get deep.

[00:00:25] I'm Abbie Henson, a qualitative criminologist searching for ideas on how to become a more cohesive, healthy, and compassionate society. If you've found yourself wanting to have thought provoking, deep, and sometimes difficult conversations, but just didn't feel well equipped, This podcast is for you. This season provides a 10-step toolkit for having critical conversations, guided by my interviews with neuroscientists, psychologists, sociologists, and more. Let’s learn togeth

[00:00:55] Welcome back! Season four of Critical Conversations. I [00:01:00] am so excited for the first step of the toolkit. In how to become self aware, I walked away from this interview feeling so energized, so hype, so excited, so expanded, just, I learned so much. And I hope you feel the same way. We are so lucky to have Dr.

[00:01:22] Rick Hanson, a psychologist, senior fellow at UC Berkeley's greater good science center and New York times bestseller. bestselling author. His seven books have been published in 31 languages and include Making Great Relationships, Neurodharma, Hardwiring Happiness, and Buddha's Brain, with over a million copies in English alone.

[00:01:44] He's the founder of the Global Compassion Coalition and the Wellspring Institute for Neuroscience and Contemplative Studies. He's also the co host of his. own podcast, Being Well, which has been downloaded over 10 million times. [00:02:00] His free newsletters have 250, 000 subscribers, and his online programs have scholarships available for those with financial needs.

[00:02:08] He's lectured at NASA, Google, Oxford, and Harvard, and as an expert, For on positive neuroplasticity. His work has been featured on C-B-S-N-P-R-B-B-C and other major media. He began meditating in 1974 and has taught in meditation centers worldwide. And now we get his teaching on how to become self-aware.

[00:02:32] Now let's get into it. 

[00:02:35] Rick Hanson: So I'm Rick Hanson. I'm a older guy born in America, lived abroad for two years, a long time marriage, 41 years, two adult kids. Great. Professionally, um, I've, uh, been a psychologist for many decades now and a meditation teacher and a writer. And I got interested in this territory out of my own suffering in part, and the desire to [00:03:00] help other people.

[00:03:01] And it just seems to me that, Well, it's important to do what we can to make things better out in the world and in the physical body, where we actually have the most power is inside our own minds. It's also where we live with the benefits and we take the benefits of our efforts there with us, wherever we go.

[00:03:19] So for very basic, practical, clear eyed. Scruffy, you know, reasons I've been a long time practitioner of mind training and increasingly over the last 10, 20 years, we have the evidence for the benefits of mind training in terms of changes in our own brain, which can be really motivating and focusing. It's great to be here with you.

[00:03:43] Abbie Henson: Yeah. I wanted you to first for our listeners, just plainly define what mindfulness and self awareness are, how they might differ and how they're correlated. 

[00:03:58] Rick Hanson: Hmm. Great. [00:04:00] Mindfulness. I kind of go with it. The roots definition of it, simple, straightforward as sustained present moment awareness. Right now we're in the present.

[00:04:12] We're doing things. We're mindfully doing that. We're not Scattered we're not distracted. We're not ruminating. We're not Overwhelmed by something that's completely hijacked us emotionally there. We're present now. It's relatively easy To be present for half of a breath, but several breaths in a row, 10, 20 seconds in a row breath after breath after breath, that can be a little more challenging.

[00:04:40] And that's for some training can come in. So that's mindfulness mindfulness can be applied to the outer world. I'm very mindful of the expressions in your face tuning into you. You're mindful of me. Um, and we can be mindful of the inner world mindfulness of the inner world helps us build self awareness.

[00:04:58] Thank you [00:05:00] We become more, um, of an inhabitant in our own inner world. We come home to ourselves. We get to know ourselves better. We become, through mindfulness, increasingly aware of granularity of experience, body sensations. Emotions, movements of desire, trains of thought, uh, imagery, memories coming forward, subtle background, uh, orientations and perspectives and assumptions, all of that is part of, is the target of self awareness.

[00:05:34] We become more aware of those things and we become also aware of them more in the granularity of time in, in the immediacy of events that are literally can take place in half a second. You know, in the streaming of consciousness, we also become more aware of our deep structures. I'm a long time therapist.

[00:05:54] Um, we become aware of the deeper layers of our psyche, including all the way down to [00:06:00] childhood material. We become aware of our temperament. We become aware of how we've been changed by our life experiences and that kind of deepening. Knowledge of ourselves is incredibly helpful. For one, it helps you feel increasingly at home with who you are.

[00:06:18] And increasingly undivided. We all have stuff in the basement. We all have stuff in rooms that need to be regulated, but all of that is us. And as we deepen in our self awareness, it's like we take occupancy. We take, we claim the property of our entire psyche. We come home to ourselves. And as we come home to ourselves in that way, We acquire a lot of useful information, like, Oh, wow.

[00:06:46] That's why I react to my wife that way. Or, Oh, wow. That's why I'm playing small around this group of people that somehow remind me of the cool kids in seventh grade. Oh, wow. Right. Or, Oh, wow. I have kind of a bias. [00:07:00] Against myself, you know, Oh, wow. I'm really self critical or I have a kind of bias against people who belong to certain groups.

[00:07:07] That's useful to know about any 

[00:07:09] Abbie Henson: moment with my own therapist, where I was telling her about something that had happened and feelings that were coming up. And she had asked, how old did you feel in that moment? And I was like, Oh, wow, I was in middle school and it was like, exactly the kind of feelings that I felt in middle school.

[00:07:28] And I felt. When I reflected on how I was feeling in that moment, I felt so young and it was so interesting. It's funny that you brought up the, yeah. 

[00:07:37] Rick Hanson: Yeah. And I'll just say here too, that, um, uh, this sort of self awareness we're talking about and mindfulness is a hardcore life skill. A lot of research shows that it's extremely useful to toughen you up to make you more resilient.

[00:07:54] To make you less vulnerable to getting pushed around by various jerks in the world, [00:08:00] um, makes you also more competent, more, more capable in business and your job, uh, you become someone who is, uh, you know, more reliable life partner. You know, less reactive, more stable, more able to acknowledge what was going on in your mind.

[00:08:18] Maybe as you understand it, you know, a day later or a few minutes later, if you've got into some fight with somebody. So this is really hardcore. This is tough. This is about being strong and capable in a life that's challenging. 

[00:08:31] Abbie Henson: Yeah, yeah. So I'm curious, given this definition that you've given and given the fact that it's a skill, right?

[00:08:40] It's something that we can train and hone. Um, and that although the ability is innate, the the Awareness or the ability to tap into the ability that needs to be trained and so I'm wondering if you can kind of [00:09:00] let our listeners know why you think I included self awareness as the first step in a toolkit on how to have a critical conversation 

[00:09:11] Rick Hanson: if we are not aware ourselves of our Kind of background assumptions and orientations and perspectives that we bring into a conversation that's important.

[00:09:25] Well, then we're kind of a puppet to our own passions or our own prejudices that drag us one way or another. Or we're basically a walking minefield for another person to step on some of our hot buttons in ways that are just blow up the opportunity for a real conversation. And then, while it's happening, uh, being able to really manage our own reactions to what's occurring and to keep and to keep our eyes on the prize, what's the important thing here?

[00:09:59] Right. [00:10:00] Yes, it would be so tempting to react to that word they used, or it would be so, you know, easy to give over to this impatience or irritation or anxiety or feelings of inadequacy, whatever that are coming up for me. No, I'm going to stay on the main track. That's the best for me here. As well as probably the other person and self awareness gives us those capacities without them.

[00:10:26] I'm a very independent, autonomous, hyper autonomous to a fault. My wife will tell you, uh, kind of person. And I do not like being pushed around. I don't like being bossed around, including by the reactions inside my own mind. 

[00:10:39] Abbie Henson: What 

[00:10:39] Rick Hanson: you and I are talking about here is the foundation of personal autonomy and inner freedom and the basis of which starts with self awareness.

[00:10:48] very much. 

[00:10:48] Abbie Henson: Yeah, the idea of having the eyes on the prize, I think, also takes self awareness to understand your intention in the conversation, right? So [00:11:00] understanding that You might, without a self aware state, you might just want to win the conversation. You might just want to prove your point and have someone say, you're right.

[00:11:12] But 

[00:11:12] really thinking about why you want that, what you, what is the need that's not being met, that's making you crave that, you know, that validation and thinking about. What that would actually do for the other person in the long run. So I often think about when I'm having a critical conversation with someone who I may disagree with, I think in the past, my ego would have been very forward and I would have wanted to just have them change their mind, tell me I'm right.

[00:11:44] And, you know, I could go about my day, but I think now My intention is always, not always, but most of the time to just have them be reflective as well. And kind of, I want to serve, not necessarily as a [00:12:00] feeder of information, but as a mirror to their own perspectives and their own beliefs and having, asking questions that then allow them to Become maybe more self aware of why they're having those feelings and why they're holding those beliefs.

[00:12:17] Because I don't think we can change one person in one conversation necessarily, but I think we can plant seeds in that conversation that then allow them to think about those things later on, um, and maybe shift their perspectives down the line. 

[00:12:36] Rick Hanson: Fantastic. Well said. 

[00:12:39] Abbie Henson: So I'm wondering, you know, you said that you got into this because of your own suffering and we don't have to go into your trauma, but I'm wondering if you can identify the point in which you identified self awareness as [00:13:00] one of the the keys or pillars to joy for you personally?

[00:13:08] Rick Hanson: That's a really unusual and interesting question. Being real and honest here, um, for whatever reasons, I think I was, I, I think I always had, even as a young child, a pretty high level of awareness of what was happening in my mind, including the nonverbal activity. the sensations, the emotions, the dynamics.

[00:13:38] I was pretty clear on that while also being really unhappy and unskillful with other people and my own mind. And so then when I began starting to actually work on myself after I landed in college and then into my twenties and the whole human potential movement [00:14:00] in the 1970s, which was in full flood.

[00:14:04] All right. I was right there in full flood craziness and wonderfulness all together. It was very clear to me that I, that there was a lot of painful neurotic material in my mind, a lot of contractions, a lot of stuff buried in locked rooms. And so I needed to use self awareness as a means to the end of Self transformation, I guess is the way I would put it.

[00:14:36] And I needed to engage in self transformation to be truly happy, or to use your word, joyful. So I guess that's how I would put it. For me, self awareness was not itself. Necessary for joy, but self awareness was an absolutely necessary condition for the inner [00:15:00] practices and efforts that have truly cultivated much, much more happiness, even joy in my mood and in my just way of being in life.

[00:15:10] Abbie Henson: What introduced you to the idea of self awareness? 

[00:15:14] Rick Hanson: Self awareness gets named early on in my own background in the early 1970s, in which I started to encounter the human potential movement when I was a student at UCLA. And so you start reading Freud or Carl Rogers, which are basically about getting to know yourself and being able to actually observe your own process.

[00:15:39] Moment to moment as foundational to being capable and resilient in the world, as well as foundational to healing and growing and eventually awakening. So I want to distinguish, first of all, being more functional and then in the world and effective, and I want to distinguish [00:16:00] that from him over time, becoming more healed and transformed, which then both of which serve.

[00:16:08] Okay. Becoming more happy and happier and more joyful in life. So the encounter for me with, with, um, self awareness as, um, a necessary means to those ends, that was definitely really young. I was probably 18, 17 when I first encountered that kind of stuff. 

[00:16:26] Abbie Henson: So because I'm a social scientist and Because my perspective and the intention of the podcast is really about cultivating connection and cultivating understanding of others and context.

[00:16:42] How do you feel like self awareness can because self awareness is internal, right? You said it at the very beginning. It's the tuning in. It's the becoming aware of the inner world. So how do you feel like That then once you have tapped into [00:17:00] that skill, once you are on a journey to self awareness, how do you feel like that then impacts your ability to connect to others or to engage in conversation or to have meaningful relationships?

[00:17:18] How do you see that being the step towards more of a communal? Oh, 

[00:17:28] Rick Hanson: yeah. So by self awareness, we're talking really about two things that relate to each other. One is real time, granular, uh, tracking of all. That's occurring in your streaming of consciousness, not just the stuff in the front, but the subtler softer stuff that's bubbling and popping in the background in the, in real time, subtleties of contraction in your body, [00:18:00] subtleties of irritation or subtleties of desire, like wanting something, just tracking that in real time.

[00:18:07] That's. High end self awareness. Most people like that kind of self awareness. So I think it's fantastic that you're highlighting the value of that. The second kind of self awareness is, is more vertical. The first kind is more horizontal, spreading your mindfulness out over the whole field moment after moment after moment of what you're experiencing.

[00:18:32] The other dimension is more vertical where you're going down into the layers. You understand your dynamics better and better. You understand the forces of the machinery, the levers. The engines, the basement, the creepy crawlers, the nasty, smelly, gooey stuff, the beautiful, saintly, extraordinary stuff. You understand the layers of your own psyche.

[00:18:56] That's what we're talking about. That's how I mean self awareness. So then [00:19:00] in terms of how does that promote connection? Wow. So many ways. Great question that you're asking here. For one, it's hard to stay in rapport with people. And to dance the dance of relationships in which you're both staying connected while also taking care of yourself, it's easy to do one or the other, but to do both in real time, the same time, that's more challenging if you're clueless about the flotsam and jetsam swirling down the stream of consciousness, and you're being dragged this way or that by one reaction or another to the other person.

[00:19:36] It's hard to sustain that dance in a way that's good for both of you. Also, if you're unaware of underlying issues, you might have get triggered, get in the mix there too. It, you know, maybe a vulnerability to feeling intimidated by big, tall white guys like me, uh, Well, take that into account. So you're not so intimidated, maybe [00:20:00] unnecessarily.

[00:20:00] So things like that. So yeah, absolutely. Both kinds of self awareness to me are wonderfully useful in relationships. Uh, like I just think about a healing conversation. You know, something happens and I come back to my wife, I say, can we talk about that? Or she says that or something. And what we both have to do is we have to disclose.

[00:20:22] What was really going on or what we became more aware of in retrospect was in the mix underneath it all That we got hijacked by being able to gosh be genuine with each other How did you you can't if you're not aware of yourself? It's hard to repair And relationships are about repair. 

[00:20:44] Abbie Henson: Yeah. I, I find nothing more connecting and warming than a partner coming to me and saying, you know, I thought about this thing and I realized I did this and I'm like, [00:21:00] Oh, it makes me well.

[00:21:01] That's the best thing to me is that they took the time to reflect and held themselves accountable through their own self awareness to understand exactly what was coming up. And 

[00:21:13] Rick Hanson: yeah, that's right. Including copying to their stuff. 

[00:21:16] Abbie Henson: Right. 

[00:21:17] Rick Hanson: Right. How do we cop to our own stuff? How do we acknowledge it and, um, put it on the table and as appropriate, uh, apologize for it or Admit it, or even have remorse about it.

[00:21:30] We can't do that necessary. Those, those necessary aspects of repair. We can't do if we're not aware of that material. 

[00:21:38] Abbie Henson: Do you feel like in order to be self aware, you have to be vulnerable with yourself? Like, does it require a level of vulnerability to then turn inward? 

[00:21:48] Rick Hanson: What do you mean? Vulnerability? 

[00:21:51] Abbie Henson: I guess thinking like it takes.

[00:21:59] [00:22:00] Confidence and some vulnerability to go into the basement to address the creepy crawlies to, um, be honest with yourself about things that may have happened in the past. Uh, in my perspective. And so I think That kind of plays a role too in the connection where if you've learned to be vulnerable with yourself in terms of letting your guard down in order to turn inward and address the things that are difficult, it might be easier than to be vulnerable with others, which I think is often the greatest connector is shared vulnerability.

[00:22:41] So I'm curious your thoughts on that. 

[00:22:43] Rick Hanson: Oh, yeah, I think you're right about that. Shared vulnerability, being a great connector, um, shared enthusiasm and shared moral commitments also tend to connect people as well. Uh, you know, I was trying to create [00:23:00] a solidarity with a bunch of people and a thing. I program I ran in college way back in the day, and a professor of mine who was a serious social activist said, you know, Rick, people don't form groups.

[00:23:13] Solidarity with each other by partying together, they form solidarity by being up against the wall together. 

[00:23:20] Song: Yeah. 

[00:23:21] Rick Hanson: So that's definitely a thing there as one way, um, as to inner vulnerability and outer vulnerability. I think you're right when, you know, to be confessed to yourself. In an, in a undefended way and to be open to your softer, weaker, more hurting, more longing, upset, suffering places inside, if that's what we mean in part by being vulnerable to yourself.

[00:23:56] Yeah. That kind of, uh, acceptance [00:24:00] of yourself and not pushing away of that when you're aware of yourself. Definitely helps you be able to do one of the most courageous things I know, which is to lower your guard and just 

[00:24:16] Abbie Henson: plop 

[00:24:18] Rick Hanson: as who and what you are warts and all with another person. 

[00:24:22] Abbie Henson: So we've kind of spoken about what self awareness is, its importance.

[00:24:28] Relationally, anecdotally, personally, can you speak to some of the science to give the greater implications of what mindfulness and self awareness can do, um, in terms of the brain? 

[00:24:45] Rick Hanson: That's very well, that's great. So I'll start with, um, a very Consistent finding across the board about how long term mindfulness practice, particularly in a kind of a training mode that [00:25:00] occurs in regular meditation, changes your brain in four major ways.

[00:25:04] One, it improves your attention. You're more able to be aware of attention to control your attention. There's no way to be aware of yourself if you cannot control your attention because then otherwise your attention goes elsewhere. Okay, that's pretty good. Second, awareness of your own body. You know, the body track.

[00:25:25] I think of Experience is a little bit like a song with five tracks. We have the thought track, which includes imagery. We had the perception track, especially sensations. 3rd, we have the emotion track, both feelings and moods. Feelings are quick. Moods are more stable. We have the desire track of all kinds, longings, cravings, hopes, dreams, and then we have the behavioral track, the feeling of action in the body, including the action of facial expressions or gestures.

[00:25:55] So all that's, you know, going along. I tend to pay a lot of attention to the [00:26:00] thought track, especially the verbal aspects of the thought track, even though there's imagery and and other nonverbal processing in the thought track, but so much else is going on 

[00:26:10] Song: under 

[00:26:11] Rick Hanson: the water line as it were, but it's happening.

[00:26:13] It's in the field of awareness. We're just not highlighting it. So important, you know, to tune into that. So that's 2nd, big findings of regular mindfulness, a deeper awareness of your own. Gut feelings, your deeper layers, including body sensations. 

[00:26:30] Abbie Henson: I need you to list those tracks again. That was so good. So we have the thought track, the 

[00:26:36] Rick Hanson: perception, 

[00:26:37] Abbie Henson: perception, 

[00:26:38] Rick Hanson: seeing, hearing, especially sensing, 

[00:26:40] Abbie Henson: right?

[00:26:42] The thought you said 

[00:26:44] Rick Hanson: emotion, 

[00:26:45] Abbie Henson: emotion and mood, or the emotion. Is that different than feeling and mood? 

[00:26:49] Rick Hanson: I call it emotion, which includes feelings, which tend to come and go and then moods are more stable. 

[00:26:55] Abbie Henson: Okay. And then we had. 

[00:26:57] Rick Hanson: Desire. 

[00:26:58] Abbie Henson: Oh, yes. The desire 

[00:26:59] Rick Hanson: [00:27:00] intentions, plans, aims, values, motivations, cravings, longings, right?

[00:27:07] Hopes and dreams. And then action, the embodied sense. 

[00:27:11] Abbie Henson: I love that. Okay. All right. So the 1st was attention. Second is being more attuned to these multiple layers, 

[00:27:20] Rick Hanson: especially body awareness, body and emotion. Yeah, really useful. Third benefit of regular mindfulness practice and training is becoming more able to regulate your emotions, affect regulation, you know, broadly stated your reactions, being able to be emotionally balanced.

[00:27:37] You have feelings, but you're not overwhelmed by your feelings. That's a really important distinction. And by the way, I've You know, summarized a lot of stuff here, but there's good neurological evidence for how each of these changes I'm describing over time. These beneficial developments for people over time involve beneficial changes in the brain that underlie these [00:28:00] changes in the mind.

[00:28:01] So attention, body awareness, somatic awareness and emotion regulation. And the 3rd one. That's really interesting is more of an expanded, less contracted sense of self sense of self starts shifting from being this sort of beleaguered separated entity. I, you know, at war with the universe to more of a sense of taking life less personally, you know, looking out for yourself and not getting arrogant or conceded or.

[00:28:34] Super defensive and territorial about it, uh, boundaries start softening between you and the world. And increasingly, you feel lived by everything, buoyed by everything. You're a local expression of the whole world, the whole universe, actually, broadly, and which can feel awestruck and gobsmacked by gratitude and, um, joyful and peaceful at the [00:29:00] same time.

[00:29:00] Abbie Henson: I had a, uh, a moment I went through a kind of gnarly breakup about God now, five, four or five years ago. And I remember it being so painful and I was in a yoga class and I was in Shavasana. So I was in, you know, the final resting pose. And I had this moment where I had this mantra came to me of like, things are happening for you, not to you, for you, not to you.

[00:29:29] And I literally like went out that weekend. I got a little four tattooed on my arm as the reminder of just exactly that gratitude practice of when, and I don't want it to be kind of masked as toxic positivity or something, not acknowledging when things are hard or Denying those difficult emotions, but understanding that so much of my own suffering was the framing that [00:30:00] I was taking and again, that's not to not hold others accountable for the harm they're causing me, but to also recognize that I can then.

[00:30:09] Empower myself to reframe it as okay. I'm I can grow from this. I can learn from this. I can become stronger through this. Um, and through that gratitude to be able to let it go and not harbor the anger or the resentment or the hurt because that Wasn't serving me. That wasn't for me. 

[00:30:32] Rick Hanson: Yeah, it's fantastic and true.

[00:30:36] Yeah. One little thing. I'll tell you. That's also kind of really cool. It's counterintuitive, uh, research on, you know, the brain and mindfulness, the mindful brain, if you will. Um, when people first start trying to steady their mind, Rather than the classic monkey mind, you know, imagining the classic image of, uh, the mind is like a tower with six windows [00:31:00] hearing, seeing, tasting, smelling, touching and thinking broadly and then the, the inner being is represented as a monkey.

[00:31:08] That's starting from window to window. One shiny object after another, and then we live in a culture. Of course, that's trying to train us to chase one shiny object after another. Uh, this is a weird example of that. It's kind of funny. Um, so my dad bright guy grew up on a ranch in North Dakota. Cowboy got interested in fishing game, led him into zoology conservation, became a professor of zoology and nonetheless, I would show him a film made in the 1980s, say, and he would have a hard time watching it because the cuts were coming too frequently.

[00:31:46] You know, if you look at a film made in the 40s or 50s or 30s, let's say it's much slower. Right. That was him. On the other hand, I would try to get my kids interested in some even an action film like straw dogs [00:32:00] from the 70s or 80s, and it was too slow for them there. They had been trained to seek stimulation.

[00:32:08] Song: One thing 

[00:32:08] Rick Hanson: after another, so in that context, then what's interesting is that when people start to steady their minds and do training, you can see a part of the brain called the anterior means frontal cingulate cortex or two of them. They're on, they're kind of in the middle toward the front, very involved with regulating attention and other parts of the brain too.

[00:32:31] So when people start meditating, those parts of the brain get especially active. Over time though, they become less active. If you study the brain of an experienced meditator, uh, you find less activity. In the interior cingulate cortex, because they've gotten more efficient 

[00:32:54] Abbie Henson: at 

[00:32:55] Rick Hanson: steadying their mind, staying in the present.

[00:32:58] And that's what happens over time. [00:33:00] There's this gradual progression. 

[00:33:02] Abbie Henson: So the mindfulness. Practice is actually more powerful than the daily inundation of constant chaos. 

[00:33:15] Rick Hanson: Yeah, 

[00:33:16] Abbie Henson: what you're saying. 

[00:33:18] Rick Hanson: Oh, that's very interesting. Um, yeah, I think that's really true. And that's really super hopeful. Uh, we can be in the world to go back to your experience a little bit.

[00:33:29] We can be in the world with, while being not hijacked by the world. I think of, uh, teaching from, I believe, um, Howard Thurman, African American preacher in L. A. and teacher, looking out at the world with quiet eyes. The world is busy, but we ourselves do not need to be invaded and occupied by that busyness, which goes back to that theme of autonomy and [00:34:00] independence, that we can be in the world free of the world.

[00:34:04] Abbie Henson: Now, do you feel like there is a level of safety and security that's required for A mindfulness practice, meaning that, you know, there's the chaos going on around the world in, for me, but I have a steady paycheck and I have a cozy home and I have a very supportive network of people I can call on. And, you know, I have all these needs met in a lot of ways.

[00:34:41] And so the practice of mindfulness feels Easy ish to tap into, you know, where does mindfulness fit in for someone who is in a war zone or for someone who is living [00:35:00] in a subjugated community where there's hyper surveillance by police and it's really difficult to get employment because of employer discrimination and all these things and having to make ends meet.

[00:35:13] Where does mindfulness kind of fit into adversity? 

[00:35:18] Rick Hanson: Fantastic question. Um, so much to it. So first of all, again, what is mindfulness? Mindfulness is sustained present moment awareness. Now, if you look at the magazines, you know, that talk about mindfulness and kind of it's applied cousin, you know, meditation, and then you think about mindful way of living, blah, blah, it's sort of seems a lot like pretty bougie, 

[00:35:45] Song: pretty 

[00:35:48] Rick Hanson: like, Oh, let's all be super chill and relaxed and self compassionate and enjoying the moment and all that.

[00:35:54] Now, mindfulness may help. You experience some of that stuff, but those things are separate from [00:36:00] mindful if you're running for your life You can be mindful of what's involved in running for your life for right now and you know, Israel and 2000 and the day to day You can be bunkered down in your shelter Very scared very worried about your children while still sustaining that fundamental presence of mind So that you're that you're not fragmented the The root of the word for mindfulness and the language of early Buddhism 2, 500 years ago, where it kind of got foregrounded is, uh, the word is sati and the root of the word for sati is memory.

[00:36:36] You are recollected. There's a recollectedness about mindfulness, which I really like. You're kind of recollected almost metacognitively. There's an ongoing sense of being present and an awareness of being present. Kind of at the core of it all, so you're, and you're collected, you're gathered together rather than blown to smithereens by all the fragments of yourself that are pulling you in different directions.

[00:36:59] Well, if you're in a [00:37:00] war zone or running for your life or dealing in an oppressive community where you really need to be on your toes, mindfulness is absolutely central to first survival. 

[00:37:10] Abbie Henson: Right. 

[00:37:11] Rick Hanson: No, absolutely. It doesn't, the fact that it would be wildly inauthentic and inappropriate to be like, la dee da, everything's like super groovy, you know, while you're in those settings, the fact that that's wildly inappropriate does not mean that you cannot also be mindful at the same time.

[00:37:30] Abbie Henson: Yeah. That's a great point because as you were saying that I was thinking, yeah, to be self aware in those moments to know. Because, you know, if you get triggered by something happening that can lead to a reaction that then leads to your death, right, the, the ability to understand, oh, this is coming up for me, but this might not be what's happening here or whatever that could be self awareness could be [00:38:00] in those circumstances a survival mechanism.

[00:38:03] Rick Hanson: Yeah, the more. That the world, um, I'm going to put it, people who are living a life of privilege with layers of safety nets, they don't need to be mindful, just get along and have, you know, their privilege be like an endlessly uprising current for them, uh, living on ill gotten gains fundamentally through the ways in which their structural advantages have served them.

[00:38:31] Uh, and that applies to me. You know, the way I look at it, Abigail has had, um, whatever is. The case in my life, whatever good things I have, or they're the result of three things, you know, luck, the genetic, including the genetic lottery, virtuous effort and advantages, which are for me as a white man in America through disadvantaging others.

[00:38:55] And the portion of what I have in my life that's due to advantage is ill [00:39:00] gotten gains, right? So that's, that's a real thing. 

[00:39:02] Abbie Henson: On 

[00:39:04] Rick Hanson: the other hand, the, the, the less privileged you are. The more that your life is hard, the more the society is kicking you in the face every day, uh, the more that you're dealing with multi, multi, multi generational legacy of accumulated disadvantages that are bearing, you know, that you're having to deal with while swimming upstream every day in the face of microaggressions and all the rest of that, the more You need inner 

[00:39:31] Abbie Henson: strengths 

[00:39:33] Rick Hanson: and definitely tied for 1st place is the key inner strength is mindfulness and self awareness.

[00:39:39] People sometimes think, oh, yeah, this is really cool. Rick for upper middle class. Yep. He's a yoga camp and like, hey, if you can make it to yoga camp. You know, why not be mindful and enjoy that, uh, enjoy that pose and enjoy that cookie and whatever. Sure, but where mindfulness is really useful in these and [00:40:00] other related inner strengths is, you know, being self reliant to the best you can be in a world that's often stacked against you.

[00:40:09] Abbie Henson: So how do we do this? You, you mentioned the four ways that this has impacted our brain, both keeping our attention heightened somatic awareness, regulating our emotions and an expansiveness of self. So are there practices that our listeners and me can do to enhance our self awareness to enhance our mindfulness?

[00:40:39] Rick Hanson: I think that there's some preparatory fundamentals that, um, are really useful. So I'll just, I'll just name them. Okay. So let's do it this way. And, uh, sorry, I'm going to do this kind of in a checklist way. My kids laugh at me forever. Hello, dad. What? You're like seven by 12 matrix for this one. 

[00:40:58] Abbie Henson: I'm as type A.

[00:40:59] [00:41:00] I love that. Okay. 

[00:41:01] Rick Hanson: List lists are good. I love, you know what to do, what to do. And then frankly, It's it's up to you whoever you are to do it, 

[00:41:12] Abbie Henson: right? 

[00:41:12] Rick Hanson: Which means that it's real It's not you earn it get on your own side be for yourself doesn't mean against others Be for yourself that may seem obvious my experience at least half the population if not more Especially those who've been socialized to not be for themselves, but rather be more for others women and girls Particularly among them be on your own side before yourself That fundamental stance of my life matters.

[00:41:37] It matters to me and I'm going to bring, I'm going to do the best I can for it. 

[00:41:42] Song: I'm going to, 

[00:41:43] Rick Hanson: okay, that's important. Second, what's called distress tolerance, because as we become more self aware, we become more aware sometimes of our sorrows. Our pains, we become aware of our misdeeds, the things that we feel a lot of remorse about.

[00:41:57] Uh, we feel, we become aware of choices we [00:42:00] made that we cannot unmake that have closed doors, certain doors forever. So, you know, have the capacity with compassion for yourself, understanding kindness for yourself, maybe a sense of also having inner allies. So you can tolerate what you're experiencing. 

[00:42:17] Abbie Henson: So how does one get there?

[00:42:19] Like, how can you build that compassion for self? 

[00:42:22] Rick Hanson: Well, there are multiple ways the 3 that stand out for me, uh, well, we're talking about being on your own side and also being able to tolerate what you're experiencing. So they kind of relate to each other. I'll just list 4 things here. Sorry. Here we go. Be on your own side.

[00:42:41] I think of that involving 3 key things. 1 is a sense of the fairness of it. The logic of it, the principle of it, and doesn't mean you have to take a class of philosophy. It just means you need to stand against, stand up inside your mind against beliefs that it's not right for you to stand up for yourself.[00:43:00] 

[00:43:00] People have a lot of internalized beliefs again, typically subjugated groups, you know, girls, women, others, um, who that have internalized that oppression as, as it were that you don't deserve it. That's not for you. You're bad. Other people. They have needs, their needs matter. Your needs don't matter. 

[00:43:17] Song: Okay. 

[00:43:17] Rick Hanson: So you have to adopt the view that it's moral.

[00:43:20] It's right. It's fair. 

[00:43:21] Song: It's 

[00:43:22] Rick Hanson: fair. Okay. You're not trying to be above others, but you're sick and tired of being beneath others inside your own mind. Second, a kind of warm hearted, tender. Kindness toward yourself that may be hard to mobilize in the beginning. They're different ways into that. One is to get in touch with your loyalty and caring for another person and then try to apply it to yourself, 

[00:43:46] Song: which 

[00:43:46] Rick Hanson: will tend to stir up your old habits and your resistance, which then once it's surfaced into self awareness, then you can do something with it.

[00:43:55] You can't do something with stuff that's unconscious. [00:44:00] That's right there. Another example of the bedrock value of self awareness in self healing and transformation. So a warm heartedness. It can also help to practice compassion. Know what it's like to have compassion for the suffering of another person.

[00:44:15] It doesn't mean you agree with them or approve of them. You just wish they weren't suffering so much. 

[00:44:19] Abbie Henson: Yeah. Often when I go to a friend, Thanks. With issues they'll often be like, well, what would you say to me if I came to you with this? 

[00:44:31] Rick Hanson: Yeah. 

[00:44:31] Abbie Henson: Oh, yeah. That's a 

[00:44:32] Rick Hanson: good friend. 

[00:44:33] Abbie Henson: Yeah. That's 

[00:44:34] Rick Hanson: a good friend. 

[00:44:35] Abbie Henson: Yeah.

[00:44:35] Rick Hanson: Okay. So that's number two of kind of a warm hearted, tender, loving, even orientation to yourself. You want to help yourself now that orientation can include clear eyed guidance. You know, you recognize how you messed up, you screwed up, but you don't beat yourself up about it. You encourage yourself to do better next time.

[00:44:57] Third element of being on your own side [00:45:00] is a kind of muscular sense of moxie where you're determined. And sometimes that comes with a sense of anger, you know, uh, it long term it's important that it, you kind of move on from the anger because it can gradually eat away at you inside. But it's that.

[00:45:17] Determination. Sometimes there's a fierceness in it. Sometimes people talk about, you know, fierce compassion. Uh, Kristen Neff, wonderful scholar and teacher of self compassion talks about fierce compassion and fear of self compassion. It's muscular. You don't want to be defeated. You got knocked down.

[00:45:35] You're going to get up, 

[00:45:36] Abbie Henson: uh, if 

[00:45:36] Rick Hanson: only inside your own mind. Okay. That's for getting on your own side. And then we have distress tolerance, tolerating your feelings there. It helps to be able to have a sense of a kind of refuge inside yourself where you feel okay there, where from which you witness the parts that are hard.

[00:45:56] It can also help to gradually internalize a sense of others who are [00:46:00] for you. If only in your imagination, but also maybe in the real or from your memories of people who were for you in your past that they're kind of with you as you're facing your pain, being able to calm and relax your body. Really important being able to disengage from the distress so that you titrate it or as Peter Levine calls it, pendulate, you swing in like a pendulum, you touch it, you swing out again, you know, because I emptied my own bucket of tears, one spoonful at a time.

[00:46:32] One spoonful is enough, and then maybe tomorrow you do another spoonful, so it has that quality to it. These are different aspects of so called distress tolerance, being able to tolerate your own experience if you're more, if you're oriented to this from your own, maybe insight tradition, you can recognize kind of like.

[00:46:52] The common humanity of what you're feeling. 

[00:46:54] Abbie Henson: Of 

[00:46:55] Rick Hanson: course, I feel like shit, right? Of course, this is so upsetting. Of course, I want to fucking [00:47:00] kill him, 

[00:47:00] Abbie Henson: right? 

[00:47:00] Rick Hanson: And whatever it might be, it's in there. 

[00:47:03] Abbie Henson: Yeah, 

[00:47:03] Rick Hanson: it can be really, really intense in there. Hey, not to lessen your experience at all, but to connect you with others in.

[00:47:12] Life today and throughout history who have felt exactly the same way, I understandably, of course, I feel horrible. Of course, I'm ashamed of myself that part. And then last, if you're really able to do it, you can recognize the nature of all experiences is empty. That all experiences, they seem so solid, but if you just look, they're made of parts that are connected and changing their empty of essence and solidity is highlighted very much in the Buddhist tradition as an important liberating insight.

[00:47:45] But anyone can have that recognition of the fact that all experiences have those three characteristics made of parts that are connected and changing thus empty of essence. Solidity or essence. And when you know that they don't seem so [00:48:00] binding 

[00:48:00] Abbie Henson: and 

[00:48:01] Rick Hanson: are not so identified with them, what is that 

[00:48:06] Abbie Henson: nihilism?

[00:48:07] Rick Hanson: No, it's a very good question. You're a fricking deep person. You are. It's great. Uh, it's a great question. Um, they exist emptily. Very important. There are, there are, there are, there, there is hearing, there is seeing, there are thoughts, right? There are memories. They are insubstantial. They're intangible, but they exist and their nature as well as the nature of almost all tangible objects is that they're made of parts that are connected and changing and that they arose and pass away, will pass away due to conditions.

[00:48:44] That's the truth of the house you're in. Will that house be here in a thousand years? No, probably not. Will your body be here in 150 years? I hope you live a really long time. I don't think I'm gonna make it. I don't think I'll make [00:49:00] it to 150. You know, anyway, so being on your own side, distress tolerance, really important foundational because if you don't have those things, how do you develop mindfulness?

[00:49:11] Abbie Henson: And then 

[00:49:12] Rick Hanson: it helps to train your attention to stay present for, uh, whatever is your current level and then build from there. 

[00:49:20] Song: Can 

[00:49:21] Rick Hanson: you stay with the sensation of half a breath? 

[00:49:25] Song: That's 

[00:49:25] Rick Hanson: 3 to 5 seconds, 1 exhalation.

[00:49:32] Can you stay present for 1 full cycle? Can you stay present for 4 breaths in a row? People start to lose it usually around the 5th breath. So you train and it's like you're strengthening a muscle. Nobody has ADD playing a video game 

[00:49:49] Song: because 

[00:49:49] Rick Hanson: it's so stimulating. So it helps to choose objects of attention that are not so stimulating because that's how you build your muscles of attentional regulation, attention [00:50:00] control.

[00:50:00] So, yeah, pick something and do a little practice a minute a day, start there. And I'm telling you, for people who start from zero, spending one minute a day. Deliberate, sustained, stable presence of mind. Get a little timer at your clock, whatever you want to do. You will learn a lot about yourself in that first minute you do it.

[00:50:25] Abbie Henson: You'll 

[00:50:25] Rick Hanson: learn how noisy your mind is. You'll learn about all the little tricks it has about distracting you to this and that there's a term called neural Darwinism. Basically has to do with the ways in which different voices or subpersonalities or complexes in the in the mind, you know, a couple dozen of them.

[00:50:44] They're all competing for airtime. They all want to grab the microphone and in that 1 minute, you'll start to notice more of those voices that are trying to grab the microphone and pull you away from resting your attention in. [00:51:00] So let's say you're breathing. So try that. Another thing you could do is follow your breath up to a count of four.

[00:51:06] Start over. If you can do it, take it up to 10 and start over. Really do it. Do 10 

[00:51:14] Song: 10s. Take it 

[00:51:15] Rick Hanson: to make two fists. Stay with your breath up to 10. Open one finger, start over the next 10, one finger, the next 10, one finger. You get to 10 10s. You know, that's usually on the order of about, you know, three to four minutes or so, maybe even five.

[00:51:34] It's only five minutes in a row, but that's, that's a good training. And then last, um, as you get to know yourself more and more, really try to bring in qualities of acceptance and kindness for what you find there. You know, you're, you're doing a brave thing. You're reclaiming yourself, you know, it's as if we're born the occupants, the owners of a vast [00:52:00] estate, like this vast estate, which has meadows and swamps, right?

[00:52:04] And unicorns and dragons, it's got the whole thing and then life happens and we gradually withdraw awareness from one part of that vast estate into another. And then we often end up living bunkered up in the, in the guest house. You know, the gatekeepers cottage as it were, and part of life is reclaiming your own interior and expanding the sense of who you are from being identified with that kind of top down egoic gatekeepers cottage place, the capital, if you will, of the whole country.

[00:52:39] Instead, you gradually include all of it over time and it's a homecoming. It's a beautiful thing. 

[00:52:47] Abbie Henson: Yeah, I think. Something that is important for people to understand, too, is that when you reclaim your estate and approach it with kindness, that doesn't [00:53:00] necessarily just, like, you're not, when you've done things that are harmful.

[00:53:05] Or painful to others reclaiming the estate with kindness is not to say that, well, I did that thing, but I was going through this and to excuse it or justify it, it brings context and it understands that as you're saying, there are more parts to you than just that one thing to define you. And so while I, I think people really.

[00:53:30] conflate contextualization and understanding with excuse and justification. And so I think that approaching the self with kindness is not the same as excusing poor behavior or denying problematic action that you've taken. It's Again, understanding and accepting that you have done that, that you've grown, hopefully, like [00:54:00] we all fuck up, you know, like we all as humans, we make mistakes.

[00:54:04] And so, as you said, like the kind of universality of these experiences, and obviously they're degreed, depending on what it is, but I think it is really important to Recognize that approaching with kindness is not some way of people getting away with poor behavior, 

[00:54:30] Rick Hanson: 100 percent and I find actually as people go on this journey that I've described and many, many people have, um, and some are farther along than I am.

[00:54:41] Almost without exception, they become kinder to others. They become more reasonable, more compassionate. They become quicker to admit fault and clean up the mess and move on because they're not so afraid of being horrible to [00:55:00] themselves if they have, if they have to, you know, be called on the carpet and admit a mistake.

[00:55:06] Yeah, and that kind of inner generosity becomes More and more of a habit of outer generosity as well, 

[00:55:14] Abbie Henson: right? Just tying right back to how self awareness leads to connectivity. 

[00:55:20] Rick Hanson: And on that note, I'm so sorry. I've got to go. 

[00:55:24] Abbie Henson: No, this is great. Can I ask one last very quick question? 

[00:55:29] Rick Hanson: Yeah. 

[00:55:29] Abbie Henson: What are the three things that are keeping your attention right now, whether it's a show, a podcast, a book, something in the media?

[00:55:37] Rick Hanson: Oh, that's what an interesting question. Well, um, the 49ers San Francisco are doing really well. So my wife and I are deep into the 49ers. They're fun to watch. So if, if that's what you, one thing, I mean, yeah. Uh, second, I'm, um, Concerned about the Middle East and Ukraine [00:56:00] and just freaking racism in America.

[00:56:03] I mean, there are just so many things and I'm especially interested in this global compassion coalition and this idea of how in the world can we get the, you know, 10 million pro social non governmental organizations in the world to finally work together? To change the world for the better 

[00:56:23] Abbie Henson: because 

[00:56:23] Rick Hanson: the governments and, you know, corporations, they're not the solution.

[00:56:27] They're usually the problem. And yet, meanwhile, we have all these NGOs that almost never combine their resources toward a single, uh, big focus, uh, unlike The forces of evil who compete locally, but they cooperate politically in all kinds of corrupt ways. So that's a second object of attention, uh, for me.

[00:56:49] And then last I've been lately really drawn into something that's kind of hardcore, but you're hardcore Abigail. So here you go. It's this fundamental distinction between [00:57:00] relating to life as A solid entity here, who's whacking on the world of objects out there, 

[00:57:10] Song: which 

[00:57:10] Rick Hanson: is the conventional and evolved way of being, 

[00:57:14] Song: you know, 

[00:57:14] Rick Hanson: the primate brain, see a banana, like the banana, want the banana, reach for the banana, grasp the banana, uh, possess the banana, Keep the banana, look for the next banana.

[00:57:30] Instead of that, I'm becoming more and more interested in what it feels like to be opened out and lived bottom up. And the feeling of that in the present in real time and bringing mindful awareness into that more and more consistently. 

[00:57:47] Abbie Henson: Interesting. All right. Well, I'm going to be curious to see how that goes.

[00:57:55] Yeah, this is great. Yeah, cool. I like that idea. Well, thank [00:58:00] you again so much. This is so exciting. I love this conversation. 

[00:58:03] Rick Hanson: Tons of good stuff. You take good care. 

[00:58:06] Abbie Henson: All right, ET, I'll talk to you later.

[00:58:12] Thank you so much for joining me in my critical conversation with Dr. Rick Hanson. This was step one in this season's 10 episode toolkit for having a critical conversation, and I hope you found it as helpful and informative as I did. There's gonna be a live Q& A with Rick following the release of this episode, so be sure to follow What's Just on all social media platforms to stay up to date on when that'll be taking place so you can get your questions and comments in the mix.

[00:58:41] Links to all social accounts can be found in the show notes. And don't forget to subscribe! Subscribe, share, and please leave a review. We'll be back in two weeks with step two, recognizing personal biases. So stay critical, stay connected, and I'll see you next [00:59:00] time.