Step Two: Recognizing Personal Biases with Dr. Mendoza-Denton

This episode is step two in the 10-Step Toolkit to Having Critical Conversations and features Dr. Rodolfo Mendoza-Denton, a professor of psychology at the University of California, Berkeley, with expertise in stereotyping and prejudice from the perspective of both target and perceiver, intergroup relations, and how these processes influence educational outcomes.

 In this episode, we:

• define the three elements of bias
• discuss the importance of bias in critical conversations
• examine how bias is an outcome of fear
• provide tangible practices to address personal biases

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Timestamps:

(00:01:22) Defining Bias

(00:08:02) Rudy's Personal Story on Food Addiction

(00:14:27) Addressing Bias in a Safe Space

(00:15:12) Providing Grace During Critical Conversations

(00:21:17) Addressing Bias as a Skill to Hone

(00:31:02) Bias and Fear

(00:24:28) Science Behind Self-Awareness

(00:39:39) Cultural Associations

(00:44:19) Tangible Practices to Address Personal Biases

(00:46:49) Three Captivating Things 

Chapters

• 1:22 Defining Bias
• 8:02 Rudy's Personal Story on Food Addiction
• 14:27 Addressing Bias in a Safe Space
• 15:12 Providing Grace During Critical Conversations
• 21:17 Addressing Bias as a Skill to Hone
• 24:28 Science Behind Self-Awareness
• 31:02 Bias and Fear
• 39:39 Cultural Associations
• 44:19 Tangible Practices to Address Personal Biases
• 46:49 Three Captivating Things

Transcript

CC_S4_Ep2_DrMendoza_V4

[00:00:00] 

[00:00:00] Rudy Mendoza: Punitive punishment holds no candle to reward, and so that's where the importance of saying things like thank you for saying that or tell me more about that and nodding heads right so that even that's a rewarding positive behavior, but basically rewarding positive behavior. Please listen carefully 

[00:00:23] Abbie Henson: Welcome to step 2 of the 10 step toolkit to having a critical conversation Episode 1 taught us how to become self aware.

[00:00:33] So now with these skills we can address our personal biases as our guest Dr. Rodolfo Mendoza Denton explains Rodolfo is a professor of psychology at the University of California, Berkeley, with expertise in stereotyping and prejudice from the perspective of both target and perceiver, intergroup relations, and how these processes influence educational outcomes.

[00:00:57] This conversation gets a [00:01:00] little personal in a way that I think demonstrates how connection and support are critical ingredients to having a critical conversation. So I hope that you enjoy it and find it useful. I know I did. Now let's get into it.

[00:01:22] Your episode is unpacking personal bias, understanding personal bias. Can you first, for listeners, just define what bias is, both implicit and explicit? 

[00:01:36] Rudy Mendoza: So the question is, Whether I can define what bias is both implicit and explicit. That's a very tall order. I think when we talk about bias, people often Think of what psychologists anyway separate into three different processes, if you will, one of them is categorization in [00:02:00] the context of bias, specifically stereotyping, and we can get more into this.

[00:02:04] But basically, we have a human tendency need almost, if you will, to simplify the world. By categorizing, and you can do that with people. You can do that with events. You could do that with animals, et cetera, et cetera. And there's different levels, but stereotyping is a part of that, essentially grouping people into categories to make predictions or, you know, decide how to behave towards other people, um, in one way or another.

[00:02:34] Of course, those categorizations Are only going to take you so far as far as accuracy is concerned because every individual is different, right? And that flows two ways where, where not only do you treat people the same way when you shouldn't, but also that process of grouping blinds you. Itself to differences within group [00:03:00] members.

[00:03:00] So there's something, for example, called the group homogeneity effect where people really do perceive members of outgroups as more similar than members of their in groups. Anyway, all of those cognitive processes are related to stereotyping. Second part of bias is prejudice, which you can think of as. In other words, not necessarily the cognitive part, but the affective or emotional part.

[00:03:28] In other words, sometimes people's bias is not so much about the characteristics that they imbue upon members of a group, which would be stereotyping, but just a feeling that they have. Usually when we talk about bias, it's, you know, we worry about negative, Judgments are negative affect negative emotions towards people.

[00:03:49] I hate them. I think they're disgusting. I think they're x and y and z, right? but also god, I just I love those people or you know, or X group of people is just like they're geniuses at [00:04:00] x or y or z, right? So it's a fuzzy line, but I think it does help to distinguish between cognitive and emotional processes so We've gone over stereotyping and prejudice.

[00:04:11] And then finally, there's a behavioral part, discrimination, which is when you act upon those other processes and treat people differentially based on their group membership. Again, positive versus negative, but there you have it. So when you think of bias, you think as a psychologist of The cognitive, the affective, and the behavioral components.

[00:04:37] Stereotyping, prejudice, and discrimination. That's It often helps when I talk to people about implicit processes and this link between the controlled versus the automatic, the automaticity of everyday life about skills like driving or riding a bicycle, you know, [00:05:00] from, or from our early stages walking right where at first it's a very controlled process that you have to practice and here what I'm talking about is actually egalitarianism.

[00:05:10] Right or or or anti bias, right? It's can be very difficult to practice. But eventually, with practice, things can become automatized. Um, and so, you know, we grow up around ideas, attitudes, ways of thinking about the world that become automatized as we grow. But it doesn't have to be that way. And then we can Reverse it a little bit.

[00:05:40] Abbie Henson: Right. Yeah. I was just talking, I just recorded another episode yesterday and there was a conversation that we were having around while belief can inform behavior, or we were, we were kind of talking around addiction and the idea that some people get labeled as like [00:06:00] once an addict, always an addict, these labels, and especially when it comes to mental illness or substance abuse, disordered behavior and.

[00:06:10] We were saying how, even if you have the inclination, right? Even if you have an inclination or if you have a thought process of like, wow, that drug looks really good, right? We also have to understand that as human beings, we can control our behavior. We're not, I think, and that's where the awareness piece comes in because I think so many of us do go through life acting upon.

[00:06:38] Our emotions without putting a mirror to them and asking, why, why am I feeling this way? Right? What, what is leading me to feel this way? And can I then take a step back and decide with agency, whether I want to act on this or not, rather than just running [00:07:00] with the emotion and just immediately reacting to whatever's coming up for me.

[00:07:06] Can I. gain awareness in a way that I can step to the side of that feeling, whatever's coming up and kind of look at it, question it. Why are you here? Where is this coming from? Do I want to play with you? Right? Like do I want to act on this or can I kind of recognize the context, recognize that maybe whatever's coming up for me is something from the past that's actually not the reality of what this moment is.

[00:07:37] And I can kind of let it go. And I think that's a really important part of this implicit bias piece is that it's not something that is uncontrollable, but it's something that is the immediate response. And then you have the agency as human beings with cognition to [00:08:00] evaluate what's coming up in that moment.

[00:08:02] Rudy Mendoza: It's, it's funny that you bring up the example of addiction and the broader topic of self regulation and awareness. Because I myself have been through a process and I'm just, you know, I'm in phase two right now, but I've, I've been through medically supervised weight loss, weight management program since, um, Early on this year, and I've lost a very significant amount of weight, and there's a long conversation that we've been having around, you know, self control.

[00:08:43] Right. And in one of our meetings, we were talking about, you know, the, the idea of, of Personal responsibility, right? And in the, in the context of, you know, you like, you know, it's at the end of the day, or, you know, what have you, [00:09:00] it's, you have this personal responsibility to not, you know, put that food in your mouth.

[00:09:06] And I think the group had, you know, reacted, you know, Badly to that because and it's not me who was leading. I was part of the I was part of the group, right? Because it's like, you know, if I hear this just say no one more time I'm gonna like, you know shoot myself kind of thing, right? And I think that there's this idea of you know of Self control right whether it's whether it's on diet or on on You know being prejudiced or just being nicer to other people controlling your emotions There's this unhelpful notion of self control and self regulation and just like inhibition of behavior as this You know, as this mysterious entity that you have, or you don't, or, you know, you, you know, or you just kind of do right.

[00:09:53] And then if you don't, it's just everything falls apart. And I think it took us in the group a little while to [00:10:00] understand that what, what this program has been teaching us is that, that it's not just about awareness, but a series of strategies. How does this relate to addiction to prejudice in this case that It's not just about, you know, I'm not going to say something, right.

[00:10:21] I'm not, I'm not gonna, you know, like be all like, like PC now. Right. And, and then it's not my true self or something. Right. I don't know. I don't really subscribe to that, to that distinction. Cause it's just really like, if I'm not being true to myself, then then it's not whatever it's at rather a series of strategies.

[00:10:38] One of which is awareness. Another of which is slowing down very much. So also the case for, uh, eating, right. So one of the things I've been noticing is that with, uh, the foods that are my particular triggers, right. Uh, there's such a, there's such a, like, it's almost comforting [00:11:00] literally for me to attribute.

[00:11:04] A genetic predisposition to my loving granola, for example, right? So it's not me. It's just that I have the granola gene. Right? And but it's it's I think it's more complicated than that. I have a long history. That's that's. So intertwined with emotion and a very well practiced set of behaviors that are so tightly associated with the stimulus, in this case the granola, right, that it's going to take a long time to, to undo it.

[00:11:38] If at all, right, we can think of stereotypes and prejudice in similar ways. We have these very, you know, well worn thought processes and behavior patterns, right, that are very damaging to other people, potentially, right? But, but, you know, the regulation comes in awareness. [00:12:00] acceptance and then practice of new behavioral patterns, which are extremely uncomfortable and extremely difficult, but you can't do them unless you practice them and mess up once in a while.

[00:12:14] Abbie Henson: Totally. And I think that's also the key with the critical conversation is that In conversation is when you're most vulnerable, I'd say, because your thoughts and your beliefs are on display, right? You are saying you are speaking them out loud. And so there's gonna be, there can be a lot of fear in, well, what if I say something wrong?

[00:12:39] What if, you know, and so I think one of the things that came up in this last conversation that I just had too, was that it's not. Not everyone is ready to have a critical conversation. And not everyone is to have a critical [00:13:00] conversation with everyone else, right? There are certain people that If you are in practice, you may want to engage in those kinds of conversations first with someone who can see you and know you and embrace you when you mess up, right?

[00:13:16] Who you trust, who, you're like, okay, you know what I meant. So I'm, I'm aware of how that just sounded. And can, like, can you help me rephrase that? Because if I said that to someone else, like they probably would not. take it well. And so to, if, if in practice, right, if we're saying that the implicit becoming explicit and, or I guess not the implicit bias becoming explicit, but the implicit bias becoming a more explicit process and then change occurring, right.

[00:13:54] Being able to correct it. If that's a, If that's a practice, then kind of [00:14:00] taking baby steps and like maybe doing that with your partner or your family or your best friend, and then moving into a more, uh, acquaintance and then moving into strangers or people who you're sharing space with. And so I think that's a key too, in becoming aware of your biases is that it really does, I think, have to occur.

[00:14:25] First in a safe space. 

[00:14:27] Rudy Mendoza: I think you took the words out of my mouth one of the about occurring in a safe space Let me circle back to that if I can I have so many thoughts running in my head but when we talk about critical conversations, right we we We sometimes fall into the trap of of being too Inwardly focused on our own train tracks, right?

[00:14:50] And being like, what did what can I do wrong? How can I be self aware? How can I how can I not step on toes? Right? But it also [00:15:00] as you as you're recognizing requires that the other party not squash your head. Every time you say something wrong, right? And as you're saying, sometimes you're not ready.

[00:15:12] Sometimes they're not ready. And so if you think about the, the, the low likelihood of two people having all that grace in a shared space. Critical conversations can be a really difficult undertaking when one is by oneself, right? The problem with family and friends and best friends is that the data very clearly show that, that close relations tend to be homogenous, by which I mean that, you know, they tend to be people from the same group.

[00:15:49] Which is all the more reason to begin to expand our circle of of affection to other people and expand and that takes [00:16:00] work and it's uncomfortable and it takes extra work so that, you know, And then we get sort of that internal feedback of, boy, that didn't feel natural or authentic. And so maybe we're not good friends, right?

[00:16:11] But, but so critical conversation and those, those, you know, maybe the way that one way to think about it is, is those critical skills are need, you know, they need to be deployed. At different times to different degrees with different people and people need to be receptive to them. And then on top of that, they need to be practiced with people at different stages themselves of their own journey.

[00:16:38] One of the things that gives me hope for these kinds of conversations is, first of all, the fact that Podcasts like yours can help people come together and maybe they wouldn't have known each other, but they can practice those things and, and, and have that common set of values, which is itself a part of coming [00:17:00] together.

[00:17:00] But I also find that even if one is Undertaking a personal journey of growth that includes awareness and and engaging with other people once behavior once once graceful behavior, by which I don't mean like, you know, like, like beautiful movement through space. I mean, I mean, like that that has a grace to it.

[00:17:31] Will many times activate grace and kindness in turn. You'll notice one thing that I did and I wish your listeners could have seen your facial reaction. But when I shared my story about the weight loss, your face softened a little bit. Right. And when you when you show that bit of vulnerability in conversation, right, people often talk, for [00:18:00] example, about using I terms and me language and my limiting to my experience, it is true that then one limits one's experience and one doesn't impose one's experience onto others.

[00:18:10] But sometimes what that happens is without self disclosure, it it does tell people, look, I'm offering a little bit of vulnerability here. Will you also take care of me? And. You test it out a little bit, see how that lands. And then you back up a little bit and then see how that lands. And then, and then kind of see where it goes and you have to be accepting that sometimes it won't work and sometimes it will.

[00:18:37] And many times you don't have to quote unquote, hit it off or have to have a, you know, stellar conversation in order for you to have learned. So, so we've, you know, we've identified at least two strategies. One is self awareness, right? And, and working to be self aware, we can get, if you like, into what [00:19:00] that means with respect to like the implicit processes, but another one is, is behaviorally self disclosure, strategic self disclosure really helps when it comes to, to bridging.

[00:19:14] Across people, not even bridging divides, right. And just across, you know, sort of the human, the human spectrum, you know, like little, little new rails between railroads. 

[00:19:25] Abbie Henson: Totally. I think, you know, that's an important point too, especially in my work. I'm a qualitative researcher. So most of my work is around interviews and there's always at least.

[00:19:37] From me, I always provide a positionality statement. So explaining who I am, where I'm from, why I'm interested in this work, because I think that we often assume that people, I don't know. I think that self disclosure allows some validation or legitimacy of. [00:20:00] Being like, Oh, this person is aware that like maybe being a white woman interviewing a black father might have some dynamics that impact the data or the, uh, just an understanding that we all, whoever we are, we bring stories, not only our personal stories, but the stories around what we are into that space.

[00:20:28] Because what we are, unfortunately, represents numerous narratives. Right. My, my skin color, my gender, all of these things are weighted and then intersecting. And so even if I don't want to bring those things into a dialogue, they're there. And so let me acknowledge that. 

[00:20:52] Rudy Mendoza: In the questions that you want, and sometimes, and, and, you know.

[00:20:57] You can't not bring your own [00:21:00] experiences and background into, into any conversation. I wouldn't want your listeners to think, though, that, you know, critical conversations are, and, you know, and self disclosure, et cetera, is, it, it, it, it, like, it's like a qualitative interview or, or a, or a, or a super controlled process.

[00:21:17] It's, it's a, it's a very giving, You know, like almost, you know, putting breaking down barriers kind of thing. And so the, the, I really want to emphasize that, that we should not think of ourselves in conversation with different others as, you know, uh, Even though we're advocating for self awareness and awareness specifically of positionality that it doesn't have, you know, it's not like I'm gonna, you know, Hello, my name is Rudy and I bring these biases to the table kind of, you know, that's not exactly the kind of self [00:22:00] disclosure I mean.

[00:22:01] Having said that, though, I do think that there's a, there's one skill in interviewing that also goes a huge long way in, in any conversation. And this is not just in, in critical conversations, but it's such an important aspect, and that is simply listening and listening well. And. So you can imagine, so you and I are having a conversation as members of different groups, right?

[00:22:35] You know, asking open ended question, questions, asking open ended questions Establishing eye contact, letting your listener know that you've been tracking the conversation. When people feel heard, when people feel validated, it really helps them arrive to that [00:23:00] place of grace. And again, you know, like, like, I don't want to, I don't want to sound like I'm like, you know, advocating like social engineering here, but it's like riding a bike, you know, like you've got to also learn to pedal.

[00:23:11] You know, like if you're actually going to ride this bicycle, right? So, so skills like awareness of bias, and then, you know, self disclosure, listening, asking questions, which, which reflect that you've been listening and validate the other person's experience are really. Are really helpful. So, you know, if I were, for example, right now in in, uh, if this conversation were not an interview per se for for your listeners, and I were trying to build our affiliation, right?

[00:23:50] I might say, Oh, cool. So you're a qualitative researcher. Tell me a little bit more about that. Right? So tell me more about X. Right? And that happened like five minutes ago. [00:24:00] Suddenly somewhere. You are like, Oh, wow, you've, you've realized right that, that I've been listening to this thing that you kind of said in passing, right?

[00:24:12] You might reflect back at me that you've been listening by saying, you know, by referencing or bringing up the analogy of railroad tracks. Right in in some kind of funny way or or or something that that and those moments have the opportunity to delight and to bridge as well and open the space for for grace around more difficult topics, right?

[00:24:38] The other thing that that that I think is true is that, you know, if you don't have to engage in like the like deep, heavy, difficult. You know stuff at the very beginning of a conversation, of course if you're In a critical conversation space and that's what you're there for. Yes, but you can [00:25:00] also share interests and build a relationship and then one day Talk about it, right and that takes a lot of Grace and effort and courage from all parties and I think that's abby where you're talking about, you know Being able to push Practice with, with friends or with, you know, spouses or, or, or what have you.

[00:25:25] Right. Um, I've been married, you know, over two decades and I still have trouble hearing about my limitations from my spouse and I have to like breathe and listen and ask questions and then just kind of go away and hide in shame for a little while. 

[00:25:43] Abbie Henson: Yeah, it's, it can be really hard to hear criticism. Um, I think.

[00:25:49] You know, the grace that you're talking about. Is really important. And I think something that was coming up as you were talking was [00:26:00] just that I think as humans, we all, because we're so complex, I think we want to be seen in our complexity in like the deep nuance of who we are and so. If I ask my partner, like, what do you like about me?

[00:26:16] And he says, I think you're cool. It's like, no, I want to hear that. Like, you like when I pop my knee, when I'm brushing my teeth. And like, I want the, the, my new detail because I want to feel like you see me in those more, granular moments, you know, and, and I think that that's part of this too, is when you were talking about the stereotypes.

[00:26:45] We often, when we do lump someone in a box or put them in a box, we're not seeing the complexity of their identity. And we're not seeing the nuance or the [00:27:00] dualisms that they may be holding in their belief systems. And I think that's a really important component of having a critical conversation is.

[00:27:10] Recognizing that you, I think so often we fear letting go of our position or being swayed or engaging and questioning ourselves and kind of listening to someone who's debating a point and then giving that great, that point grace and being like, Oh yeah, you're kind of right. Because we, I think so often we tie our identities to our belief systems and So, I can just see that, in part, recognizing that when we stereotype, we're not allowing the complexities to shine through, which then disallows our own complexities to shine through.

[00:27:53] Complexities in who we are and what we believe, and so, I think that's a really important point. important point [00:28:00] too is that if you're willing to be vulnerable with expanding your position or expanding your belief system and kind of holding space for multiple and even contradictory beliefs, it might allow the other person that you're engaging with to do the same, to kind of pull down some of the walls that they might Hold up around their belief system because they're tying their identity to it and feeling a sense of security within that identity.

[00:28:29] So if you can kind of, I think it, it has a contagion effect as well. 

[00:28:35] Rudy Mendoza: Exactly. Grace has a contagion effect, a positive contagion effect in this day and age of I think one of the ways that people approach stereotyping and, you know, the, the, the boxes it puts people in and is in relation to critical [00:29:00] conversations is through a lens of avoiding, right?

[00:29:05] So you must avoid stereotypes, right? Like don't say something like that. Or, or, or, or hurtful or stupid, right? Which is true. But oftentimes that can be really tricky because one will often not know what one may say or think or do that is going to offend. Right? And so some grace in. Recognizing that being able and to, to apologize and to, and there's a skill there too, which we should talk about.

[00:29:44] But the point that I want to make right now is that I think it's important as we move through this space as intentional beings to not be in this, what I call this prevention focus, right? Like, don't, like, [00:30:00] Don't stereotype. Don't, don't stick your foot in your mouth. Don't, you know, put your foot, your other foot in a bucket, right?

[00:30:07] One foot in the bucket, one foot in the mouth. It's bad for, you know, locomotion, but rather a curiosity space, right? Where one can ask Tell me a little bit about yourself or you take as, as we're saying, right? Little, small cues about, you know, about the other person and giving them a chance to build that version of themselves that they want to present to you that you can then, that you can then work from.

[00:30:38] It doesn't have to be only about prevention, but about promotion of discovery and giving people a door that allows, allows them to individuate, even if you have stereotypes, which are at one level, right, just hypotheses about the way [00:31:00] that people are. 

[00:31:02] Abbie Henson: Yeah, I think the one of the points you're bringing up that's really important is the practice and learning of people.

[00:31:11] Questions of both others and yourself and I love what you were saying about approaching with curiosity. I think that's I wanted to tie that back to the idea of bias with fear and fear of others or fear of other beliefs and rather approaching that with curiosity. I was listening to a podcast episode where Michael Pollan was being interviewed and he was talking about a study that he had been looking at that was being done at NYU with terminal cancer patients and they were going on these hallucination trips.

[00:31:49] Using LSD and this woman had during her trip and they were all guided this woman during her trip saw a [00:32:00] monster in her chest. And she was really scared of it. And the guide told her, rather than running from it, ask the monster, why are you here? Right? What is your purpose here? And I loved that reframing of fear to curiosity.

[00:32:20] And I think that's so applicable to what we're talking about here, especially when our biases about certain groups are rooted in fear because We have to unpack that. We have to explore why we feel that way and what that's rooted in and what experiences or exposures have created those fears and recognizing, which I wanted to get into with you, especially you brought up the contagion factor.

[00:32:51] The contagiousness of fear and how [00:33:00] holding that fear and then experiencing or receiving the fear of others.

[00:33:11] So I was looking at some of the studies you've done and it was looking at both circulatory diseases and all like the heightened cortisol level levels that can the anxieties that can occur both when you are harboring fears of other groups and then when you're experiencing the fear and so I'm wondering if you can just briefly speak to that because I think We have to recognize that the, the becoming aware of your bias is not only positive for your social well being and for your emotional well being and for your cognitive well being, but also your physical well being.

[00:33:57] Rudy Mendoza: Sure. I'm happy to speak with that. [00:34:00] Fear is certainly part of the process, but I want to be also clear that that it's not just fear. There's also anger and anger is so damaging, right? So, like the, the, you know, you mentioned the study where, where we showed that the levels of these were different processes, but basically the levels of implicit bias.

[00:34:25] In an explicit bias, I should say both in at the at the in the region where you live. It was at the county level in the study. That's how we you know, we collected. We collected publicly available data. And we said, Okay, this is the amount of bias that exists in this particular county. And then we looked at the rates of cardiovascular disease in that county, and we found that for Black residents in that county that were higher levels of [00:35:00] circulatory disease, right?

[00:35:01] And that was related to the amount of the, the, the availability of health services in that county that gets into sort of structural discrimination. But then we also showed that it's actually, it's also related to, to, to circulatory issues among white people. Participants and and we that's related, I think, to the to that the As you're saying the fear, but also the, the, the anger and just the, the, the negativity that's associated with like, just the sheer amount of work that, that it takes to hate.

[00:35:40] You know, it, it, it's not, it's not good for you. We've heard so much. Uh, and there's been more and more recently, for example, in the, in the blue zones of the world, the, the, the, the, the communities that, that tend to live the longest. Right? It's in my reading, and that this [00:36:00] may be like a social psychologist as opposed to a nutritionist.

[00:36:03] In my reading, one of the strongest indicators seems to be social relationships, right? Positive social relationships, right? And so if you're, you know, if you're running around the world, hating and fearing It can it can only be it can only be detrimental for your health. And it really like it has it has these effects on things like blood pressure and and heart disease.

[00:36:28] There's other work that we've done showing that in cross group interactions, right? When you first start your levels of cortisol go up, and that's not all that surprising because cortisol is an activating cortisol. It's known as sort of the quote unquote stress hormone, right? But it's it's more complicated than that.

[00:36:52] And part of what it is, it's it's an activating hormone, right? So whenever you first meet someone, [00:37:00] you experience cortisol. a cortisol spike because it activates you and it's a new situation and you're always doing the issue comes in when those cortisol levels don't decrease, right? So over time, when you get to know someone as a function of conversation, presumably, you know, grace and positivity, you're, you know, that, that That cortisol spike goes down, right?

[00:37:29] And that doesn't happen for people who remain threatened, right? And that can happen both as a function of being the target of the threat of discrimination, as well as the threat of being in a group that being being in the presence or interacting with a group that you that you. Dislike or can't deal with right?

[00:37:52] So all the more reason to approach others with a sense of shared humanity and what you can [00:38:00] learn. And even though some of those, some of those biases can run really, really deep and they're so automatic that even if you feel it, you have to. Constantly be in practice with yourself to not tamp them down, but as you're saying, to recognize, be aware, and act in other ways so that eventually it becomes like riding a bicycle.

[00:38:28] And the more you practice it, there's two processes going on it. You get better at the behavior of simply by by exposure, right? But also you begin to literally see the humanity and others over time, as opposed to And as opposed to continuing to hold the stereotypes. 

[00:38:48] Abbie Henson: Yeah. I think one of the things we learned in COVID was that people aren't necessarily motivated by altruism.

[00:38:56] And so the idea that [00:39:00] harboring this anger or the hate, or just the fear or misunderstanding can actually impact your, your life. Self negatively might be a further motivation for a lot of people to kind of check these biases and try and release them for our listeners. If we could tie this all with a pretty little bow, what would you say are the tangible ways, the steps, some of the steps, not necessarily in chronological order, but just any of them in terms of becoming aware of personal bias.

[00:39:39] Rudy Mendoza: First. Understand that implicit associations are natural, unavoidable, and part of everyday life. If I say brick, most people are going to think of immediately, [00:40:00] right? The color red. Right? Because you have this little, you know, this little bubble that says red, right? Or you might have immediately like the thought of a house.

[00:40:10] And how would I know that that is suddenly become more available? That's the accessible, I should say, more accessible in your mind. Is that then if I, if I give you the letters R space D, you're more likely to say red after hearing brick than rid. For example, right? So the concepts have these weak, strong, negative, sometimes excitatory and inhibitory links.

[00:40:38] And that's just part of what we are. And, you know, you say X and all of these other concepts come up, you say Mexican, right? And sombrero, you know, whatever it is, right? And it's so important to recognize that you have those, but also that they're not, you know, necessarily true and [00:41:00] that other people have different ones, right?

[00:41:02] I say, you know, you say Mexico to me, and I think of entirely different things because I'm Mexican, right? And so, and I have access to different worldviews, knowledge, et cetera. You 

[00:41:14] Abbie Henson: say brick. I'm from New York city. city that means cold, you know, that, that was the first thing that came to mind for me. Yeah, 

[00:41:23] Rudy Mendoza: there you go.

[00:41:24] And that's, and that's part of, that's part of the, the, the beauty of, of, of difference. Right. And there's some things that we will share and other things that, that we don't, you might think of. You know, brown because it's supposed to read because it's brown stuff, you know, now, so implicit automatic processes exist, they're part of our everyday life, but there's the awareness part comes in and being like, Oh, wow, you know, I do think of, of, of bread or, oh, wow, I do think of, of criminals when, when, you know, [00:42:00] I'm making assumptions about criminality when I think of Mexicans, right?

[00:42:04] And and just checking oneself to make sure that instead of being like, oh, you know He looks mexican or he is mexican and being like, hey, so are you mexican being like, where are you from? tell me a little bit about yourself as opposed to you know, I had a neighbor who's like like such a sweet person and They saw their tattoo my tattoo for the very first time and she literally says she's like, ah going back to your roots huh, and i'm like They said, I don't know I should take that right, but I have to have grace and, and continue the, the, the relationship and then decide whether that's worth it for me.

[00:42:46] I guess that was a little bit of a hurtful comment. Right, but it didn't What what is your tattoo? It's my tattoo is , so it's, it's a tattoo of. That I made and it's four [00:43:00] symbols that contain the letters of my family So it's a tattoo on my forearm that I got for my well, I think it was 40th Person, I think it was 40.

[00:43:10] I mean, you know to which my sister immediately said midlife crisis, huh? That was that was that was funny, you know for the longest time with that tattoo it like I I Because originally I was going to get it on my shoulder You And then at the very last minute, I decided to get it on the form. And I just, I wore long sleeve shirts for like the longest time before I was ready to accept.

[00:43:35] Abbie Henson: I mean, but that's the interesting thing is that like, can you imagine the difference in your receptivity to your sister saying midlife crisis to then your neighbor who you may not have a relationship like that with being like, midlife crisis, huh? You know, you'd be like, excuse me, versus someone who like, you can laugh it off with, which I think says something about the importance of the familiarity too.[00:44:00] 

[00:44:00] Rudy Mendoza: Right. Or the, or the, or, or the, or the meaning or, you know, simply, you know, it's not like my, my neighbor and I don't talk or, or, or we, you know, we don't like it, it's sometimes you have to forgive and, and, you know, like we haven't had a critical conversation, but we don't, but we, we intersect around plenty of other things and sometimes just forgiving, like that's sort of the other thing, right?

[00:44:24] Forgiveness. And that's part of what I mean by grace too. Right. So I haven't done a very good job of summarizing what we need to do. So there's implicit processes, but those can be changed. Those processes can be changed with exposure. And new learning, right? So let's take a trip to New York City and walk around in the summer when it's 100 degrees, right?

[00:44:54] Let's go to Greece, where the bricks are white, lucidly, right? [00:45:00] And eventually the those automatic connections are can be replaced, right? Another thing, asking, tell me what you think about when you think of bricks. As opposed to people And I bet that you think that bricks are red, right? And you're like, actually, no, I think they're white kind of thing.

[00:45:19] So approaching with curiosity, with open endedness, right. And then knowing that those experiences build new tracks in your railroad and build tracks potentially with another person's railroad. And then suddenly all you have a network. Some of those tracks survive, others don't. And that's, that's, that's, That's part of it.

[00:45:43] Skills that we're talking about, right? So it's not just about gritting one's teeth and hoping that one doesn't say the wrong thing, right? It's about awareness. As you're saying, slowing down about asking questions and being open to [00:46:00] new and different information. Not just intellectual humility, but cultural humility as well.

[00:46:05] How's that? 

[00:46:06] Abbie Henson: I think those are great. I think those are great. 

[00:46:08] Rudy Mendoza: There's also here, I think, a lesson in, um, not just for us, but for education. In general of rewarding positive behavior, as opposed to punishing negative behavior. There's so much punitiveness, as I say, you know, not just, you know, calling out, but, you know, canceling or, and it's, it's a very sort of reactive and, and, I've used that word before, like orientation towards intergroup relations.

[00:46:37] Whereas, You know, we know from behaviorism that, you know, punitive, you know, punishment holds no candle. So 

[00:46:49] Abbie Henson: I like to close each episode with a question on what are, outside of this conversation, what are three things keeping [00:47:00] your attention right now, whether it's a show, a podcast, a book, something in your life, just three things keeping your attention.

[00:47:09] Rudy Mendoza: Three things keeping my attention right now. The first is my own book. I have a I have a novel that currently has no home and it's, it's certainly holding my attention, although at the moment it's weighing, I would say it's, it's a very heavy weight at the moment. As a result, the, the mechanics of fiction are really holding my attention right now.

[00:47:38] I am. Literally looking at the edited book by Jordan Peele out there screaming, which is a horror compilation, I believe of black authors, and I'm just like, can't wait to get my hands on that. The other thing that's holding my attention is this bag of shit. Nutritional powder, [00:48:00] maybe the rather than going into that particular rabbit hole.

[00:48:05] I'll just say that, that my, that weight maintenance is, is, is Attending a lot of my attention because it's, you know, I've lost all this weight and now I need to learn to undo some of the behavior so that one day, maybe I might unlearn the strong link between granola and like eating until I literally have a stomach ache, which is which is difficult to admit, but it's part of life.

[00:48:40] Currently, currently who I am, the other thing that's holding my attention right now is just this fierce, the how to get the field of psychology to accept with grace that white supremacy is a part of what built America. The [00:49:00] field. And so, you know, you mentioned white supremacy and immediately it's like, no, no, no, no, I'm sorry.

[00:49:05] We, you know, we don't wear hoods. We're, you know, we're, we're fine. And it's like science is science and it's sacred. And so there's a lot of work to be, to be done around that. And I think that there's a theoretical frame. So. That's what I think about. Out there screaming protein powder, white supremacy.

[00:49:22] Abbie Henson: Thank you so much for speaking with me today, for educating our listeners, and for self disclosing. I think anytime we can put our own personality into something that can be perceived as a little dry, it makes it a lot better. So, thank you again so much. 

[00:49:42] Rudy Mendoza: You're very welcome. This was very enjoyable.

[00:49:44] Thankfully. 

[00:49:45] Abbie Henson: Thanks. Thank you so much for joining me in my critical conversation with Dr. Rodolfo Mendoza Denton. This was step two in this season's 10 episode toolkit for having a critical conversation [00:50:00] and I hope that you found this episode as helpful and informative as I did. There's going to be a live Q& A with Rudy following the release of this episode, so be sure that you follow us just on all social platforms to Stay up to date on when that's going to be taking place so that you can get your questions and comments in the mix.

[00:50:18] Links to all socials can be found in the show notes. And don't forget to subscribe, share, leave a review. And we'll be back in two weeks with step three, how to get curious. So stay critical, stay connected, and I'll see you next time.