Step Seven: Encouraging Vulnerability with Dr. Mariel Buqué

This episode is step seven in the 10-Step Toolkit to Having Critical Conversations featuring Dr. Mariel Buqué, an Afro-Latina psychologist and author of the best-selling book, Break the Cycle: A Guide to Healing Intergenerational Trauma. She earned her doctoral degree in psychology at Columbia University, where she trained as a holistic mental health fellow within Columbia University's Irving Medical Center. Within this role, she focused on helping Black and Latine community members overcome trauma and build better health; a mission she continues to carry into her consultation with health organizations and Fortune 500 companies. 

 In this episode, we discuss:

• why breaking the cycle of trauma is imperative for connection
• the impact of inflammation on physical health and mental wellbeing
• the impact of prolonged crisis on our DNA
• the relationship between ancestral knowing and epigenetics
• tools to heal intergenerational trauma

Don't forget to check out the bonus episodes that feature an audience Q&A and the Soundbath led by Dr. Buqué. And please follow Whatsjust on Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn and subscribe to the weekly newsletter to get details on where and when the Live Q&A is happening! 

And, as always, please review, subscribe, and share with everyone you know :)

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Timestamps:

02:32 Understanding Intergenerational Trauma: Definitions and Dynamics

04:46 The Role of Vulnerability in Healing and Connection

10:57 Challenging Traditional Therapy: Beyond Cognitive Behavioral Therapy

14:21 The Inflamed Mind: Rethinking Depression and Healing

16:44 Holistic Approaches to Mental Health: A New Paradigm

25:15 The Power of Ancestral Wisdom and Resilience

34:06 Confronting the Mental Health Crisis with New Perspectives

35:19 The Impact of Prolonged Crisis on Our DNA

35:35 Breaking the Cycle: Why It's Essential for Critical Conversations

35:45 Understanding Our Nervous System's Response to Stress

37:23 Reprogramming Our Bodies for Better Conversations

41:14 Introducing DRIVE: A Tool for Navigating Difficult Conversations

46:22 Exploring the Questions of What Happened to You

47:39 The Importance of Contextualizing Intergenerational Trauma

51:48 Ancestral Knowing and Western Medicine: Bridging the Gap

55:33 Practical Steps for Addressing Intergenerational Trauma

01:02:33 Breaking the Cycle Beyond Procreation

01:05:32 Three Captivating Things

Chapters

• 1:16 Diving into Vulnerability and Healing Intergenerational Trauma
• 2:32 Understanding Intergenerational Trauma: Definitions and Dynamics
• 4:46 The Role of Vulnerability in Healing and Connection
• 10:57 Challenging Traditional Therapy: Beyond Cognitive Behavioral Therapy
• 14:21 The Inflamed Mind: Rethinking Depression and Healing
• 16:44 Holistic Approaches to Mental Health: A New Paradigm
• 25:15 The Power of Ancestral Wisdom and Resilience
• 34:06 Confronting the Mental Health Crisis with New Perspectives
• 35:19 The Impact of Prolonged Crisis on Our DNA
• 37:23 Reprogramming Our Bodies for Better Conversations
• 41:14 Introducing DRIVE: A Tool for Navigating Difficult Conversations
• 46:22 Exploring and Adding to the Questions of What Happened to You
• 51:48 Ancestral Knowing and Western Medicine: Bridging the Gap
• 55:33 Practical Steps for Addressing Intergenerational Trauma
• 1:02:33 Breaking the Cycle Beyond Procreation
• 1:05:32 Three Captivating Things

Transcript

  Inflammation that is then captured in the mind and the nervous system translates into depression and translates into, you know, a lot of the diseases that we then see carry on beyond depression because a body that is constantly inflamed, constantly trying to battle itself, starts to metabolize disease.

And so we're not actually talking about that in CBT. So we're treating the symptom and we're giving, you know, people like, here's a thought journal. Great, thank you for the thought journal. What about the rest of me that's also suffering and actually carrying a lot of this traumatic retention? Welcome 

to Critical Conversations, a podcast for lifelong learners who like to get deep. I'm Abby Henson, a qualitative criminologist searching for ideas on how to become a more cohesive, healthy, and compassionate society. If you've found yourself wanting to have thought provoking, deep, and sometimes difficult conversations but just didn't feel well equipped, this This podcast is for you.

This season provides a 10 step toolkit for having critical conversations guided by my interviews with neuroscientists, psychologists, sociologists, and more. Let's learn together.  Welcome to step seven of the 10 step toolkit to having a critical conversation. So far, we've learned to become self aware, address our biases, become curious, create safety and conflict.

Ask questions, listen, and now we get to learn how to become vulnerable. Today's expert is Dr. Mariel Bouquet, an Afro Latina psychologist and the author of Break the Cycle, a guide to healing intergenerational trauma. She earned her doctoral degree in psychology at Columbia university, where she also trained as a holistic mental health fellow within Columbia university's Irving Medical Center.

Within this role, she focused on helping Black and Latinx community members overcome trauma and build better health, a mission she continues to carry into her consultation with health organizations and Fortune 500 companies. This recording is from an interview we hosted in front of a live audience, and it was so great.

Such a special experience. And I am so deeply grateful for everyone who was there in person. And now I am so excited for you all to hear it because I know how powerful it was for me and the other attendees. So let's get into it.  So I'm hoping to open us up. You can first speak to and define what intergenerational trauma is.

What does it mean to break the cycle? Mm hmm.  Yeah, it's like a big word and a big term, right? So I'm glad that we're getting started just in really centering our definition of it. Um, because intergenerational trauma is actually the only type of trauma in the world of emotional trauma that can actually get transferred forward generation to generation, parent to child.

And it happens at the intersection of our biology. So our gene expressions and any kind of genetic messaging that happens from parent to child. So if our parents, grandparents, great grandparents, ancestors had actually experienced any kind of  extreme adversity or prolonged adversity, then it could have actually shown up in their genetic expression.

And at conception we receive those genetic messages.  But then fast forward when we're actually, you know, earthborn and now we're a baby that's looking for attunement and connection with the big humans around us, right? Maybe there's chaos in the home and maybe somebody's missing the cues that  we need care, we need to be fed, we need something, right?

Love, attunement  of any sort. And that's really kind of like where things may get started in terms of like a baby's nervous system being kind of regulated or as we call it in the, the psychological world, dysregulated, right? And seeking nurturance and trust and care. Um, and fast forward to everything else that happens in life because life is hard, right?

And we have a  life where people get discriminated against because of their, uh, social identities. They get, you know, pummeled by relationships that perhaps have toxic elements. Maybe they live in a pandemic, right, that really hindered their sense of safety. I mean, there's so many things that life can throw at us, both on a personal and a collective level, that then it could make it so that those biological vulnerabilities that have been there from generations past can now get triggered into being trauma symptoms.

which now makes the trauma intergenerational. So we understand now what intergenerational trauma is. Can you define first what vulnerability is and how intergenerational trauma connects to vulnerability? You know, vulnerability, um, is definitely situated in our capacity to feel a sense enough of a sense of safety that we actually step into courage.

And that's where vulnerability really finds its feeding ground. And so when we, we feel like there is a trusted human or a trusted environment where we can actually feel like  this is a space that I can open up in vulnerability finds its way. When it, when it's connected to intergenerational trauma and the ways in which it is connected to it is because generational healing work is probably one of the most vulnerable types of  pieces of work that you'll ever do in your life. 

In my book, Break the Cycle, I've gotten people tell me like, I bought the book two months ago and I still haven't opened it. Or I bought the book and I opened, I read a few pages. I, I, I felt so deeply, you know, connected to the content and then I had to take a week. To just recalibrate because it is really heavy and deep work.

But what I oftentimes remind people is that in that vulnerability, you'll also find lightness, right? And so when we get through the work, we can find our way into not just the lightness of, Oh, I feel lighter this weekend. It's the lightness that is long term. It's the lightness that is a reflection and a consequence of us having shed so many of the layers.

that have kept us in, in these walls, right? That have erected barriers between ourselves and others and haven't allowed us to be in a vulnerable space for an extended period of time, which is one of the biggest markers of forging connections. When we can feel vulnerability inside of a relationship, the connection finds its way in a much easier and tangible and sustainable way.

Yeah, I think a lot of people have.  difficulty with the term vulnerability because they view it a negatively or they view it as opportunity for victimization, right? So if I'm closed off, right, you can, you're, I'm guarded. I'm opening my heart to you. I'm open here. You can stab me right there, you know? And so how do you build through the generational practices? 

or addressing the intergenerational trauma practices. How do you build the confidence to feel like you're still armored in a way, like you're still protected in your heart and in your body and spirit and, but yet still can approach others with vulnerability? Well, the thing about generational healing is that it's itself  offers us an opportunity to  lean on other coping mechanisms that aren't the protective guard that oftentimes disconnects us from others.

Like a big part of generational healing is relationship building, right? I always tell people, you know, uh, we're in relation to so many things to each other, to the world, right? To the universal elements of life, to systems, right? I mean, there's so many connections and relationships that are oftentimes influx just in one day of our lives.

And so we have to.  really center relationships and how we can breed vulnerability within many of them while also having coping mechanisms in place that can help us when those people, those systems, you know, even the world may injure us. When in the psychological world, when we talk about somebody being  stuck in a specific emotion for a prolonged period of time, that would then render  a clinician, you know, in need of actually providing them with a diagnosis.

Depression, for example, someone's in prolonged sadness, prolonged grief. They can't get out of the fog and, you know, they go see somebody and okay, check depression. Oftentimes, a lot of what we're in essence working through are these deep wounds  that haven't had a proper coping  attached to them, a coping that is sustainable, a coping that really truly helps the person and doesn't just place a Band Aid on their hurt.

And so when people learn the coping skills and then they, they go through different circumstances at work, like for example. You may get triggered at work. Work can just be a breeding ground, especially for, you know, folks of color, for people to just feel, uh, re traumatized sometimes, and, you know, maybe to a lesser degree, just, you know, feeling really uncomfortable around certain conversations or language or workplace culture.

So, if we, if you actually go into your, uh, workplace. Place on any given day and somebody's thing and comes out of their mouth and says something that really triggers you It could resurface that longstanding grief and, and sadness that's been there,  but has been pushed down with overwork. That's one coping mechanism, or it's been pushed down with you.

Whenever you're feeling some sense of sadness, you just go out and try and forget about what's keeping you sad, but you're not getting to the root of what's causing the sadness. Right? And then from there, from getting to that root, actually creating new coping skills that are adaptive and helpful and really get you into a place feeling lighter. 

So um, when it comes to generational healing, a lot, a lot of the work is about how do we get to the root? How do we excavate what's at the root? Work on that, not work on the symptoms, but work on the root. And then get you to a place where you're feeling lighter and you're feeling like your, your legacy that you're building in this lifetime right now is one where you can actually no longer live in the decades and generations of depression that have existed in your family line. 

Okay, so that goes very against CBT. Cognitive behavioral therapy. The idea that you don't have to address the root, just like address the thoughts that are coming up.  How important is it to excavate that route?  Well, no shade to CBT, but you know,  don't we have a global mental health crisis and CBT has not, you know, really done the work to, to really.

Help people like when you, in part, you know, some of the practices that we have in place, the theories that we have in place, one, have not worked when it comes to people trying to surface from a global pandemic where we are not okay, like people are not okay, you know, and we have all been there. We were all in this trying to get out of that fog of, you know, the last couple years of our lives of being, you know, When we talk about the pandemic, some people just think pandemic and then they kind of shrug it off.

But the pandemic was a prolonged  crisis where we all thought we were going to die  for months and years. Can you imagine? And then we were told, Hey,  everything's done. You can just go back to work.  Go take your kids to school and don't worry if they catch something, right? Like everything just needed to be status quo all of a sudden. 

Yes, we can train the mind and the thoughts to transition from being in that existential crisis. But what happens to everything that's been captured in the body? What happens to the fact that our bodies are a big depository of trauma? And when we were watching the news for days on end and wondering if we were going to die. 

And our bodies, our nervous systems were literally stuck in fight, flight, freeze, or fawn, most likely freeze or fawn, which is emotional shutdown and literally the place where even from an animalistic perspective, where we go before we die, where we think I'm giving up. There's nothing left to do. I'm going to die.

So.  We, well, we have to like really zoom in and take things into context and then look at the therapeutic methods that have been in place.  And, and really take a very critical eye to something like CBT and the fact that CBT isn't getting into the body. It isn't getting into the, the, the one, perhaps an even more major part of where trauma is situated and even where depression is situated because depression is an inflammatory disease.

Yeah, that. When I read that in your book, I was like, oh, it was so powerful. You know, I know we, we kind of touched on this and the fact that, you know, so for depression, the method that has been used at least for medication has been, you know, to medicate SSRI. So, um, SSRIs are, and SNRIs as well, but they're a category of drugs that actually are psychotropic drugs that help a person to increase their serotonin levels because the theory back in decades past that really took off because sometimes theories take off because somebody has a lot of funding and they get that theory into the right hands and then all of a sudden everybody's funding that theory And it's all politics, right?

But that theory took off and now we have an entire world that's being medicated around serotonin reuptake inhibitors, right? Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, SSRIs. And  another theory that was also surfacing around that same time was the theory around the inflamed mind. How inflammation that is then captured in the mind and the nervous system translates into depression.

And translates into, you know, a lot of the diseases that we then see carry on beyond depression because a body that is constantly inflamed, constantly trying to battle itself, starts to metabolize disease. And so we're not actually talking about that in CBT.  So we're treating the symptom and we're giving, you know, people like, here's a thought journal.

Great. Thank you for the thought journal. But what about the rest of me? That's also suffering and actually carrying a lot of this traumatic retention. Yeah. One of the things in your book that like was blowing my mind was when you were referencing how medications for things like psoriasis and Uh, rheumatoid arthritis actually do really well treating depression.

Yeah. And at times do better than SSRIs at treating depression, which  is, makes sense. Yeah. And I wish that more studies would get funded to actually help us to see all the other classification of drugs and non drugs, right? Cause y'all know I love botanicals and things that, you know, are very natural. Um, but that can help us to have an understanding of what brings inflammation down in the body Because autoimmune conditions, they're an inflammatory response that's basically stuck on chronic, on forever.

So, you know, it's, it's really important for us to have some consideration of the ways in which there are other things on earth. Ancestral and ancient  concoctions,  um, medicines, right, that preceded modern day and western medicine. And then also other types, other classifications of medicine that can also help with the, the modern day mental health conditions that we are seeing are skyrocketing and are getting better and better. 

So incredibly out of control in the entire world that we're like, you know what, um, people are suffering and what we're doing is not working. The mental health field, we're failing. We're failing people because there's something that we're doing that is not allowing for people to experience true and sustainable healing.

So something needs to be reconfigured. And it is, it's why, although it's a bit of a radical move to say, hey, and inflammation.  I thought, you know, I'm gonna, I know that, especially with, um, with some of my methodologies, some people question it, right? They say, that's too spiritual, that's too, you know, like, let's just talk about things. 

But it's really important for us to be very holistic in how we approach a whole human. When somebody comes into the door in my therapy space, it's a whole human that comes in. It's not just their mind. I must see them in their wholeness, and I must approach my treatment. Yeah. To work with the whole human in front of me.

I love that. I love that. I was thinking about when you were talking about coping mechanisms, I was thinking about, I told you I'm like a very visual learner, and when I was starting my therapeutic journey,  I was recognizing that a lot of the coping mechanisms, and I think this is true of most people, is that the coping mechanisms that you adopted as a therapist As a youth, we're super, they landed, right, like at that time, they worked and then they become maladaptive as you age.

And the coping mechanism that I had had was just repeatedly, incessantly telling myself, you're fine, you're fine, you're fine, you're fine, you're fine. And I was visualizing, like, as I was starting my therapeutic journey of each time I would say, you're fine, I would. build a brick around myself,  trapping myself within this cylinder of pain.

And then I'm like a vibrating body of anxiety within this cylinder of pain.  And then not only is it me, but thinking about the context of your book. I'm standing in this cylinder, and my feet are planted, and the roots of my intergenerational trauma are holding me down within that cylinder. Like, there's soil, and there's our roots, and there's a bunch of shit that I don't really want to deal with down there.

And so, uh, When I started thinking like, okay, this is probably maladaptive,  and I should probably start telling myself that I'm not fine, and that's also okay. And so how do you then pull away those bricks, start liberating yourself by becoming vulnerable, by turning it inward, by thinking about both the thoughts, the feelings, and also the sensations within, and thinking of the three.

And the image of like the roots and everything is drawing me to your tree.  And so I'm hoping that maybe you can speak to what the tree is and how to construct it. That tree, oh my goodness. The way I love this tree y'all, um,  it really has, has centered my practice. But, so has anyone like, like, a family tree here at all? 

Just a sprinkle of people, yeah, and that's typical. There's like, I would say it was that 1%, right?  I set out to develop a trauma tree that was intergenerational, um, that I could actually use in my practice but also integrate within the book. Because a lot of us don't have An understanding of the ways in which the trauma responses that have existed inside of our family line actually translate into what we then inherit.

So basically this tree, which I call the intergenerational trauma tree, very unique. It is a tree that is comprised of four different parts. There's the leaves, there's the trunk, there's the roots, and the soil. And on the leaves, I ask folks to write in the name of a family member, someone who Had enough proximity to you and it could, you know, it could be the entire family tree, the entire family line, whoever you may actually have some recollection or knowledge of their history of their lives, but more specifically of their trauma responses.

Could be, you know, Aunt Benita who every time she would experience some sort of stress or hindrance at work. Her natural response was to numb her emotions. How does she numb? Alcohol.  Basically, create a distance between yourself and the emotions that are burrowed within. And so that was her trauma response.

What about your dad? Okay, well, dad, you know, he would constantly, you know, just leave for a day. He was in constant flight response. You would never know. Where is dad? Maybe your  mother's response would be to lash out and yell, and that was like her trauma response. And so we start gathering that data.

Everybody gets a leaf, and we start understanding what are the trauma responses that are reflected in my family tree. And then we transition into the trunk, which is representative of you.  So in which ways have these trauma responses caused a wounding in you? In which ways have they hurt you? In which ways have they made their way into your life, into your generation?

And then we transition into the roots, which are some of those internalized messages that have come up from having had those interactions with people who haven't  found their healing, right? And some of the more common internalized criticisms or beliefs that people tend to hold are like, I'm broken, right?

That's very big in trauma. Or, you know, I don't, I'm not worthy, I don't deserve love, things like that.  And then every tree system has soil, which we oftentimes forget. The soil is also a part of the tree that's feeding  everything else. And even if it's not directly like a part of the tree, it is in, in its direct ecosystem and really creates a lot of that, um, the beautiful growth of the tree.

And so the soil system becomes a reflection of more of the external forces. Some of the external messaging that we receive around generational trauma, or even the pain that's existed in our family line. We don't, we don't talk about that outside the family. We don't say those things to other people. We don't seek therapy.

We, you know, don't air our dirty laundry, right? Or, you know, uh, children should be heard and, and not seen, right? So as to suppress the actual humanity of children. And so many other things that are a part of just our culture that also feeds into this tree system and feeds the trauma that then makes its way into our homes.

That's a lengthy.  No, it's good.  But it's um, you know, it's a very complex system and it's one that when I work on it with folks, I, and I, even in my book, I say, take your time.  Don't sit here and like everybody wants to rush and just get the tree over and done with. And there's a lot of emotion that we can also unpack within that.

How does this leaf make you feel? What about the trunk and the roots? That's a really hard. idea about yourself to sit with. Can we talk that through? Right? And so  there's a lot that happens in the process of building out that tree. It's not just a, we just had a session and built out the tree. We may have six, seven or eight in which we actually need to sit with the different parts of that tree and really unpack the ways it's actually made, made its way into your life in a way that's caused a deep wounding.

So I teach a class on victimization at ASU and one of the modules that I do is on post traumatic growth and you speak about it in your book. And the way that I often talk about resilience is  that we often think about resilience as bouncing back or like healing as bouncing back. And the way that I like to describe it is that  we love trees,  is that there's a tree on the edge of a cliff.

Right. And there's constant wind on this cliff. And rather than every storm getting knocked down and then coming right back up, knocked down, coming right back up, the tree just learns to grow. And so it just is able to endure the hardship of the wind.  I think, I am questioning myself right now because I want to say this, and I'm questioning whether I want to say this because, you know,  There's so much stigma around trauma and pain and I'm wondering if I want to band aid it right now. 

But I'm just going to say it and you can call me out.  Call you in. But  one of the things that I think is important that you also point out in the book is that a lot of these trauma responses and the ancestral gain of trauma Is coupled with an ancestral gain of resilience, right? And these people in our lives have learned to endure hardship and have passed those, that knowledge through us too.

And so  I get caught up in like, when I was reading your book, I was like, should I, how can I love? These people still when I'm like so deep in the trauma that they've, that I've inherited from them and then thinking about the strength that's also coupled with that. And so again, I want to bring light to that, but also am I bringing light to that because I'm like, uh, they're, they're going to freak out.

Like they're going to just be thinking about all the trauma and the pain and everything and like wanting to balance the scale in a way. But I do think that there also has to be. The sitting in  the trauma and the taking the time before unpacking the strength and resilience too.  Yeah, I mean, it's an important point.

You know, how, how do we, I think it's, it's twofold. How do we, um, sit with where did our resilience come from, right? Especially if the people that are around us. in our immediate, you know, family, perhaps we can't really see the resilience that's been passed down. And oftentimes like I, I urge folks to look beyond them.

My parents, I love them. I love them dearly. They're my heart, but they're also my pain in the neck. Of course. And so  for us all, all the time, all the time. So I, you know, I constantly have to work hard, especially with my mom, because we're kind of the same human, to, you know, balance out my emotions and my emotional responses to her.

So it's really, even though I see the strength in my mom, my mom's amazing. She's beautiful. I, I don't know how she did all the things she did, how she survived, no clue,  but one person that brings me immense peace that I can lean on, she's no longer living, but I can lean on her by just thinking of her and writing letters to her and things like that.

It's my grandmother, right? And my grandmother is literally my mom, but there's a little bit of a separation that allows me to really like. center on the resilience while I'm yelling at my mom for like beating my dogs, things that she shouldn't. And then, you know, I can, that's where I need the resilience.

I need the strength. But, um, but yeah, I can, you know, I can, I can lean on ancestors that are a little bit more distant, but also I lean on people that are in, as far as I know, not connected to me. At least in my immediate lineage. Nina Simone and James Baldwin are some of my ancestors that I deeply, deeply appreciate for their words and wisdom.

Just how genius they have been in delivering, you know, uh, liberatory praxis. And so, for those of us that it's like really hard, cause that person still kind of,  You know,  triggering, um, it can be helpful to just look at other people and, and the people, especially that bring you peace and comfort, um, because one of the meditations that I do with folks is one in which I say, imagine an ancestor that wishes you well, someone who you know, You really feel deeply connected to whom you can trust and imagine them coming to you  and opening their hands up and saying  you can trust me with what's hurting your heart and them actually closing up their palms after you give it to them and carrying it with you  so that you don't have to carry it alone.

And, you know, if we, if I imagine my mom with her beating my dogs, you know, beef or whatever, um, it's going to be a little tricky. My meditation is not going to quite hit. I love my mom, but goodness me. But, you know, like when I, when I can imagine someone that's a little bit more distant, it, and it does offer me a bit more respite.

And the reason why I also bring myself into the work is because I need to feel what I'm asking others to feel. I need to be fair in that interchange and say to myself, what, where's the pain? How does it feel? How do I carry it? How can I absolve the pain and step into my lightness so that when I'm speaking to people, it's from a really authentic place and from a place where I'm like, you know, I've been in the struggle.

I continue to, you know, sometimes have my moments and all of that is real and human. And now I can bring myself out of that with ease within seconds. It used to take me days  Days, I was in suffering for days over one thing,  and I think from days to seconds, that's a, that's a, I'll take seconds, you know, and I want other people to experience that lightness, where you can go about the rest of your day, and it's not how people say, like, my day's been ruined.

No, you have tools, and we can use those tools to help you get back. into a place where you're level headed and, you know, you're light again. Yeah, last night you and I had a conversation that kind of piggybacks off of a conversation I had with a friend, thinking about how so much of faith and the desire for thinking of something bigger than ourselves is to not feel alone.

And I think something that clicked for me and in this conversation in the context of what you're saying right now is that to understand that I'm never walking alone because I always have my ancestors with me and behind me and around me. And that is such a comforting, even if they're like,  have their own issues, you know, like, at least they're around.

And that is such a nice thing.  I wanted to ask early on,  do we all have intergenerational trauma?  I believe we do. After I published this book especially, I'm looking around and every conversation that I have, regardless of whatever intersecting identities a person may be existing within, Like, we all have some elements of trauma, right?

I even think of the people in my own family, how, especially in the recent years, my sister and I have been uncovering, like, we really don't like the men on that side of the family. Like, there's something about them that's, like, very, like,  toxic masculine esque, you know, that doesn't really allow their, their softness to seep in.

And then, the compassion.  Like, oh my gosh, they never got allowed an opportunity to step into their own vulnerability. And to see that as strength. And so they only used what was socialized within them,  unfortunately so. And so,  even with, with things like that, where you have like,  you know, it doesn't have to be that your family suffered from a period of famine.

It's not the only place where trauma comes from. Sometimes it comes from family patterns. Sometimes it comes from community trauma. Something that affected just the city, or just the, you know, especially now with all the school shootings, we have a lot of communities that are in deep grief. And every year they get reminded, you know, of that grief.

And there's university professors that are like, I'm not teaching in that classroom, right? Like, there's a lot of trauma in these spaces. I believe that there's, especially now, there's so much trauma that There is no way that we're not each living with at least some element of intergenerational trauma.

And I, I know you know this from reading the book and our conversations, but a lot of what science is telling us, even though it's still new science, is that we have an approximate seven generations. of genetic messaging and material that is connected to adversity that lives within us. And so if we're talking seven generations, there's someone in that seven generations that experienced extreme adversity that then showed up in their genetic encoding, that then proceeded to procreate, that made, you know, in a, in an unknowing way, but made, you know, the, the connection of their trauma and adversity to your life.

There's some connection. Yeah. I think I had my mind blown when I first learned a couple years ago that experiences literally change our DNA. Like I had no idea that. And so to think that  not only are our experiences changing our DNA, but all the experiences of the past are changing that DNA that we're then inheriting.

So it's not only our experiences, but the experiences of the past in our DNA. That's like.  That did something for me. Yeah. So for me, I started getting really frustrated with mental health, right? Like being kind of like an insider clinician. I was like, okay, but what about, what do we do? So many of us, especially during the pandemic, we were like, we need tools.

We need something. And I, I remember when I first got on social media, I call that like the what era of social media. What is anxiety? You know? And it's like, it was just very like. Textbook and nobody wanted to veer away from the DSM. You know, we don't even have developmental trauma, childhood trauma, generational trauma.

We don't have any of that in the DSM. So you have a whole bunch of  old white cishet men that are like sitting here creating the DSM on our behalf, not knowing really our, our lived experiences and not even accounting for. You know, sexual trauma, like so many things. And so it's, it's very non inclusive. 

You know, working through  collective, a collective crisis and sitting with folks, and they're like, yeah, the world seems like it's ending today. And I'm like, yep, it sure is. And we're like here, you know, having this session yet again, hope you're alive next one, right? Like, it's just so weird.  This moment in the pandemic is actually collectively changing our DNA.

Because we were all in a prolonged crisis.  We need to do something about that in order to create some reversibility.  Thinking about the context of a critical conversation. How do you feel like breaking the cycle contributes to, like, why would it be part of this podcast? Why is it? Why is it important to having a critical conversation?

Because we have to um, really address the ways in which within  ourselves we are existing in  particularly nervous systems that have been stuck in a threat response.  And when we're talking about having critical conversations, A person can say something to you, and your trigger response is one that is old, that has been there for a while, and is  being brought up, and it seems like it's being triggered by that person, but really, it's that person that cut you off.

on the road, right? It's that person that, you know, microaggressed you in the cafeteria. And then you came home and your child started asking you for things repeatedly.  And now you go to the grocery store and a person asks you if you want that thing that's on the side and you blow up.  What is happening is that your nervous system is overloaded.

Anyone that wants to bridge a conversation with you, whether it's a small conversation within a grocery store or a different conversation. Maybe it's, you know, a supervisor having a conversation about an evaluation. Or maybe it's a partner saying, you know what, I had such a tough day today. And I need support and I just want to talk to you about it and your nervous system is not centered or prepared or ready to have that conversation.

And all of a sudden they want to be vulnerable with you, but you can't meet them. So when we're talking about having these critical conversations, we have to talk about how is the body taking in that conversation and how is that threat response being triggered. And how can we then start reprogramming our bodies to minimize the threat response so that that same partner that's coming to you and saying, Guess what?

Another bad day. Been a month and that project is still not being completed. Everyone's getting on me about it. I need some support. Can I talk to you?  The version of you that has done the work and can create more steadiness within your mind and body to actually be present in that conversation is going to breed a connection between yourself and your partner.

Versus a version of you that is coming in with the multiple layers of different aggressing stressors  that then get triggered by whatever it is that your partner says and then get, get slashed out. So when we're talking about critical dialogues, it's really imperative that we start centering the ways in which we can start.

Feeling how our nervous system has been pre programmed to  be in a state of alarm. And then, once we're in that reprogramming state, we can actually have conversations that can, that can be steadier. And I know you and I have had, you know, beautiful dialogues even about how that can take place on a systemic level.

A lot of the ways in which, I think,  We have so much, uh, division, um, among us, especially in this nation. It's also situated in how our nervous systems are just not  equipped to be able to have difficult dialogues. And if we can find ways into garnering greater peace and even biologically garnering greater peace within ourselves, I, I suspect that the conversations will be drastically different.

Is what you're kind of speaking to more or less? That's the broadening of the window of tolerance. Yeah. Yeah. It's exactly that. Okay. And it's just basically, um,  making it so that we have a greater capacity for, to tolerate stress. If, if anyone's not familiar, but so that when things happen, you may lose, you know, your favorite pen.

And last year you would have been like my favorite pen, you know, and this year you're like, you know what? Okay. Having worked on your nervous system response, having worked on a cognitive reframe, having worked on, you know, how you center yourself on the resilience that is inherent in you, that mind, body, spirit transition into how you go about.

Your day, every single day causes a reprogramming and so every single day as you reprogram your nervous system, your neurons, your brain even, because our brains are neuroplastic and they're ever evolving and changing, everything is being reprogrammed back to health.  And so when we reduce that inflammation, when we center our lives on health and really become very holistic in how we approach mental health, it allows us an opportunity to then have an expanded window of tolerance by default. 

One of the things I was just thinking about was how CBT.  disallows us or prohibits us from actually turning the critical gaze around us. Right. It's like centering the individual. And so we're, it's like, especially when thinking about the power dynamics of who created it, just  trying to blind us from the structures around us.

So that was one thing. But then I was also thinking as you're talking, like,  Implicit in what you're saying is that people change. Yeah. And I feel like a lot of times I hear the sentiment of like, oh, people don't change. And thinking that  actually if you're someone who's saying that, then you're low key letting yourself off the hook that you won't change.

Right? Like you're saying essentially that like. People don't change. I don't have to change. I don't have to do the work. I can't do the work. I don't want to do the work.  All right. So in thinking about a critical conversation, can you walk us through some of the aspects of DRIVE? So DRIVE is like this acronym.

I'm horrible. My, I have attentional difficulties, so sometimes my brain is like, where does the, which, which point goes here? I have your book, and I have the dog here, so if we, yeah, we need to reference it. Thank you. So DRIVE is like this, um, acronym that stands for a number of steps that I, uh, wanted us to have as a tool to basically get on the driver's seat of conversations that are difficult around generational trauma, but really any conversation.

And, you know, the acronym in essence, like, stands for, like, Don't Point Fingers. Which,  can anyone guess, like, how often pointing a finger  actually, actually works? No. Percentage wise? Zero. Thank you. Right? Oh, look at that. Thank you. It never quite works. It never, you know, and so people build up their guard, they erect walls, and you're not going to have the conversation that you've been waiting so long to have with someone.

So it literally thwarts the conversation. Beyond that, you have to Relay your messaging in a short way. What happens when we sit down with someone after we've wanted to have a conversation with them for forever? We're rambling, we're nervous, we're like saying all the things, we're going into loops, and they're not, they're like, what are, what are we saying here, right?

And so we miss an opportunity to just say something simple.  Just literally one sentence, six words, and just allow them to digest it.  And then we have to initiate with emotion. So the I's for initiate and  that means that we have to  stop looking at the content like, well, you said this and I,  you know, and just the back and forth.

If you get into that, then it's going to, it's literally going to end right there. Instead, you can start talking about the emotion. I feel this way in this moment when I'm talking to you, it's making me feel a bit anxious,  but I'm sitting in that and I'm willing to still have this conversation, right? Okay.

Then, you know, the V is for, um, it's for visualizing your nervous systems. Like, think about this, right? Like, when you're talking to someone, I'm talking to you right now.  Have you ever, like, thought, like, I wonder how her brain is firing? So, so kind of weird, but, but how your brain is firing, how your nervous system is responding to this moment, right?

When you look at someone in their eyes with sincerity and hope and love, How is it that their brain is responding to that, right? And so when you start visualizing each other's nervous systems, it helps you to also humanize the person in front of you rather than  And then finally the E is for engage, right?

Like go back into action and like really talk about the thing. Also concrete, also concise that you'd like to do. And I, you know, I offer like in the book, like a way that to, to really kind of make this come to life. Right. And I think that it's helpful sometimes when we can just apply the acronym to a conversation that we're hoping to have and recite it and think about, okay, so.

This is how I want to say it, actually say it out loud, and it gives you an opportunity to have practice, to build mastery around the conversation.  And it also gives you an opportunity to start doing the things that, albeit weird, can be really helpful in building compassion, like imagining how this person's nervous system is taking in.

the information that you're providing them. And so all of these things, I think when we have conversations,  are we ever thinking about any of these things?  Probably not. Right. And so I think it's just such a disservice to us as humans that the, so many of the pillars of connection are being left out of the equation when we're having difficult dialogues.

Which is why I really wanted to, to have an entire section in this book about how do you approach conversations on trauma? Not, you gave me this trauma because you didn't do what you were supposed to do. You didn't heal and now I have to work through this.  It's, I'm, I'm hurting,  healing, I'm hurting.  It hurts me to see you also hurting, and we have a conversation about that.

That's a conversation that's vulnerable,  that is centered on connection, and on really wanting to not just see yourself heal, but the other person heal, because it's intergenerational. Yeah, you talk about in the book. See, I know my stuff. Yeah, there you go. You didn't even need that. You didn't even look at that once.

Um, So, you talk about. how doing this work can be helpful to do in community, which is also why I wanted to do this here because I think having these kinds of conversations in a group setting where you're held by other people who are interested in the same kind of outcomes and the same kind of change is just really helpful and really comforting.

And I was just thinking how, Um, a fun exercise might be in relationship or in community or in conversation to explore the three questions that you lay out, which I love because the last episode of the last podcast season was with. Bruce Perry, Dr. Bruce Perry, who co authored, uh, What Happened to You with Oprah Winfrey.

And what I love that you do is that you add these two contextualizing questions of what happened around you to consider global pandemic or racism or just historical traumas that are cultural.  And then also what happened before you in terms of the ancestry. And I love I love context. Like, it's basically all of my research is around context.

And so I love the idea of  in conversation exploring and asking the other person. Those questions too, and just practicing the vulnerability of responding  authentically and yeah, I love those questions. Yeah, I think they're more comprehensive. And I even mentioned in the book, like I was, you know, going through, um, the ACES questionnaire, which is the adverse childhood experiences. 

And I felt so stuck because it didn't allow me an opportunity to really get into the intricacies of generationally what had happened to this person. And it also wasn't contextualizing some of what we were struggling through even together, which was a global pandemic that was coupled with the brutality of police murders.

And I had this.  A number of different clients who were black identified who were like  losing hope,  right? And so I'm sitting here, you know, not having the tools not having an understanding of what I could do that Could help us to contextualize their, their humanity and their lived experience from the place of where has pain come from in a better way and a more nuanced way.

And it was actually through the, the conversations I had, particularly with one client that we were like,  there's more questions that we need answered. Some of those questions started burgeoning from those conversations.  Think about this. Think about somebody that. you love, but that they're that person, you know, they're the person that can sometimes like, you know, just build tension in your life. 

Think about asking them these questions, not to actually do it, but just imagine yourself  asking them these questions. What happened to you? Can  you imagine how humanizing that is? What happened around you? What happened? We suffered, you know, from the entire community didn't have running water.  So many of the kids around us kept dying, dropping like flies, because they were infected with so many diseases.

And I saw that every living day of my childhood. Can you imagine  what happened before you?  Well, before me, you know, my, my family had to  evacuate from their home because there were a number of different gangs that were actually infiltrating the area. Oh my goodness. Right. And so it's like, or, you know, other things like that can happen, but it's just the number of things that are present in the historical. 

The, just the histories of the people that we come from and the histories of the people that are around us, just in this room, there are so many people, right? And all of us carry up to seven generations of histories embedded within us. Can  you imagine how much that is? Can you imagine if you ask every person in here, what happened to you?

What happened before you and what happened around you? How much, how many more layers you can see within that person and how much more you're able to really connect with their humanity? And when we're talking about belonging, we're talking about vulnerability, we're talking about being able to then see that person in this whole new way because you see all the layers of pain that have then culminated into some of the coping that they've acquired.

And even sometimes, right, I'm not, and I make sure I don't make, Excuse us for anyone's poor behavior, but sometimes it even gives us the answers that we need around  the people that have shown up in a, in a not so good way in our lives.  One of the things that I think a lot of people get caught up with is the idea of  understanding and contextualization and justification and excuse.

And I think those are very, two very different things, but contextualization and understanding is so deeply important, not only for compassion, but also for self healing, right? If you're holding the anger and holding the hurt, like, You know, that saying of like, you're just taking the poison yourself. Yeah.

A lot of our conversation has been around abolition too. And I was thinking about the scientific elements of ancestral or intergenerational trauma. And one of the things that you and I were talking about and that you mentioned in the book is ancestral knowing, right? There's these Ways that our ancestors have created  selves and all of these medicines, right?

And ways of addressing a lot of these harms, but we've needed epigenetics and westernized medicine to legitimize that ancestral knowing.  And I was thinking about how a lot of our westernized medicine Is trying to address like I was just thinking about, um, the grief in the lungs and how all these lung disease is actually like a holding of grief and how IBS is tied to anxiety and all these things.

And we keep trying to address the symptoms. And I was just thinking about it within this, um, kind of dichotomy of abolition and reform, where a lot of times I'm thinking about criminal legal reforms as a harm reduction approach,  but it's not actually, again, addressing that root cause. And so thinking about these westernized medications and treatments as a harm reduction approach to deal with the symptoms so that maybe you can then address the problem and abolish it from the system. 

Right. You excavate it from the root. And so I was just  finding those parallels. And yeah. And I think that there are, there are very concrete parallels like in our theories and our work and you know, a part of why I decided to intersperse science into my book, uh, was in part because I thought.  This was only a part of it, but I was like, they're not going to believe it because we are so socialized to prioritize Western models, Western science, Western theory. 

And only when we can say, oh, yoga actually changes your neurobiology,  then we can actually say, yoga's good for you, like, you should try yoga, right? And so it's this way in which we give, like, a seal of approval to ancient and indigenous, indigenous of different lands on earth, um, practices.  That have been there for forever, but have never gotten the Western credibility until we actually bring in the science, which is so unfortunate because imagine all the social ails and like mental and physical conditions that can actually find cures.

Um, if we were to open our, our minds up to inviting in different kinds of, um, healing modalities. I felt like, well,  I'm going to need. to bring in whatever science has been up to date to actually prove my case here. And every time that I talk to people, and it's especially like, and now I know, because I, I interview every day, right?

And so I'm like, now it's like, I know who's going to ask me about epigenetics  and prioritize the science and who is going to ask me about.  ancestral wisdom.  And what I was hoping to do with Break the Cycle is bridge. There's both. We can, we can find a way to really synergize these places of information and to bring them into an actual theory that can then be applicable as a, as a healing tool.

It can heal the masses so that we can get out of this global mental health crisis and out of this continuous pain.  You spoke throughout this entire interview about some tangible steps, but let's list them out. Tangible steps that audience members and listeners can do to address their intergenerational trauma. 

The first step is awareness, y'all. How many of us have, have really looked in the mirror and said, like, you know, I am a person that has been living with generational trauma. I have inherited pain. There are a lot of, of the fragments of, you know, what didn't get resolved in previous generations because people didn't have the tools, didn't have access, didn't have the motivation, right.

To heal  all of that made its way into my life. And I'm standing here man in the mirror, like MJ, right. Like, and just. And really realizing, wow, there's layers to the pain that I'm carrying. There's a lot here. Probably I will get a 1%, you know, raising their hands yet again, right? So I think awareness and like really acknowledgement is really a first step.

But beyond that, I always tell people, because people want to jump right into the work, without realizing that when we're talking about things that are heavy, even when we're talking about depression, we have to work with the body first. And we also have to work with building our resilience. So how do we do that?

We do that through nervous system restoration. We do that through  sound bath meditations that can actually recalibrate your mind and body at once and offer you an opportunity to experience healing that is tangible in the moment. But because our, our actual nervous system and in particular, our neurons are firing  in response to the healing that is occurring as we're actually playing the bowl and as we're listening to it and as we're taking in the sound medicine.

It's allowing us an opportunity to now reprogram our minds and bodies. for the long term. Why not take the five minutes a day to do the deep breathing  and to actually help your nervous system to start firing in the direction of health rather than in the direction of  unwellness. And so deep breaths are really critical.

Sound baths, you know, it's not for everyone, but if you can incorporate a sound bath, I'd definitely recommend it.  The same with other things, like,  I always like to get into these because people find them to be like really strange, but when they do them, they're like, oh, okay,  not a problem. I can see how, you know, that could be helpful.

And it's the process of rocking and swaying from side to side.  Rocking  stimulates the part of our nervous system that actually helps us to feel calm.  And when people have a tough time really understanding that from a real tangible place, I often times Help them to see like what happened when, um, you were rocked when you were a baby  or what happened to if you're a parent, if you rocked a child or you're a child,  they fell asleep, right?

Because what happened in their little nervous system is that it got stimulated into initiating a ventral vagal response, which is the response of the nervous system that actually helps them to feel calm. And also as a sense of trust, like I can relax and release because I am safe.  And so when we rock  in a hammock, a rocking chair, or if we have none of the above, we can just rock in our chairs.

At work, you just have that really tough meeting, everybody came out their face, go to your desk and rock. Breathe, rock, breathe. And your nervous system is actually helping you to release the tension that's been pocketed in your nervous system from that previous meeting. But then also helping you to release and reprogram for the long term. 

So, I always get into the body and into the resilience parts first, because  when we start digging into the past,  and we do that prematurely, our brains are going to do the very natural thing that they're programmed to do, which is  associate, we're going to, we're going Disconnect. We're going to avoid.

We're going to close the book and we're not going to read it anymore.  We're not going to attend therapy, and if we attend therapy, we're 15 minutes late because we don't want to do the work. What I found is that that does, it's a disservice to folks. And if you're paying me, I'm pricey, y'all, 

if you're paying me to provide you with the service of healing and you're showing up 15 minutes late,  frazzled, and I understand that that's a part of the coping that you've initiated because you haven't quite gotten into your nervous system practices. And we have to get back into the nervous system because we're not quite ready for the digging. 

I'm not going to have you digging into the roots of your intergenerational family tree and digging out all the shadows of the past if your nervous system can't tolerate it and it goes into a hyper alerted response. It's not fair to you. It's actually, it can be re traumatizing. So when we're talking about doing healing work, it's really critical.

First we center the body.  find a nervous system response that is now being programmed to be more of the default. Once we do that, we then transition into, okay, let's get into that first leaf.  Then we start integrating, meaning we start looking at how that leaf is actually showing up in that interaction that I just had with my partner the other day. 

That's how it shows up. Oh, mine looks a little different, but it's the same numbing response. It's the same stonewalling. It's the same fleeing. It's just that mine looks like the 2024 version, you know. What my grandmother's stonewalling was  and so when we start integrating that knowledge into our day to day lives We start learning where we can start releasing  and so, you know, it's a very holistic Way of approaching the work, but like I said when you know when we're dealing with the whole Human that's  been in pain in a holistic way.

They haven't just been in pain in their thoughts They've been in pain fully It's important that we bring in all those different pieces of how we heal and, and do it in a very strategic way so that we don't push a person into the deep despair that we tend to see in, in modern day life. But instead we can bring them, you know, closer to feeling like the work is tolerable.

Yeah, I think if you haven't, again, gotten the book, there's so many good tangible resources in here. You walk us through so many beautiful practices that are so approachable and very well described. So I really appreciate that. Thank you. Um, I think before we end, just a quick question.  I think the important caveat to breaking the cycle is that it implies future generations, right?

And I know for myself and many of my friends that a future generation might not be there. And so, you know, Can we break the cycle even if we're not planning to continue that cycle down the line? Yeah, definitely. So, you know,  for us, uh, the folks that, um, are not procreating or, or will not,  it's really important to consider the fact that we also deserve peace in this generation.

And that the work that we do from this place of garnered peace  also matters for the larger whole. I have a 16 year old nephew, as you know, and yes, I, you know, there is a parenting effort that I put into, you know, helping to raise him. in part, right? But he's not the only young human I think about on a daily basis.

I think about, you know, how we're destroying earth for the next generations. I think about the ways in which my role is to really help parents to find their way into ease and calm so that they can actually be more child centered in their approach and really look into their little human's eyes and And say, I see you, I'm here for you, and that they can forge connections with them so that we can, I can show up into this world with greater tenderness.

And even like the multiple, you know, Ubers that I've taken throughout this week, that every single person I can  forge connection and conversation with them because I'm so settled that I have capacity. You know, and even the, the guy that drove me here today, he was like,  I'm like, you know,  I could have joined in on that.

Right. But the way that I have been in my settled place and the beautiful, you know, conversations that I've been having with friends. recently that have also centered me, allowed me an opportunity to then be present and kind to this person who was so unraveled.  And, um, and I think that that's also part of how we build legacies.

We build legacies by how we show up in this generation, even if it ends with us. And sometimes the, it ends with us is the proclamation of a legacy that is legacy building. It's saying there is no more. pain that is going to be transferred forward biologically or psychologically. It literally ends with me and that's incredibly honorable as well.

So I like to end every podcast interview with just  three things outside of intergenerational trauma. Three things that are keeping your attention right now, whether it's a book, a podcast, a show, or just anything. Three things that you've been thinking about recently.  Oh goodness, it's all going to be trauma based. 

I'm not good. Okay, so I'm not going to, I'm not going to focus on trauma because I love trauma. The work and, uh,  ceramics. Ooh, love that, yeah. I'm learning how to construct and glaze. Cool. So I'm very happy about that journey. So that's keeping my attention.  Anything that is a food show,  The Great British Baking Show.

Oh, obviously. I watched all the seasons. Sometimes I watch them over and I'm like, I've seen this. I already know this recipe. So baking, I love. I make a mean flan, y'all. Yes. Uh, so definitely that. Um,  and learning a little bit more about, uh, gardening. Gardening and, and getting into the dirt. And. almost kind of having moments where I can just, uh, tune out and I have my do not disturb and recently found that there's a level above do not disturb airplane mode.

Yeah. That's on fleek right now. Yeah. So I have been very intentional about moments where I am like, It's airplane mode time and you know, the people that I love understand and they know this is a moment where I'm just going to recalibrate and I can get into moments with earth and  the things that we, we just like, do you know how many veins are in the, it's just so, it's so beautiful.

Right. And it's like, we don't pay attention because we've been programmed not to. And it's such a disservice. So what I want is to one, not kill my plants anymore and like really learn gardening. So that's keeping my attention lately. Those are great. Yeah. So it's nothing with, you know, traumas of the world, um, because I do, I do need my balance.

Yeah. Well, thank you so much for talking to me today. This so 

much for joining me in my Critical Conversation with Dr. Mariel Bouquet. This was Step 7 in this season's 10 episode toolkit for having a critical conversation. I love the idea of ancestral knowing. In Dr. Natalie Nixon's episode in episode 5, She stated how it's important in conversation to trust your intuition, and I think that this adds a really nice context to that notion, to consider how your intuition is actually shaped by your ancestry, which I can find a lot of comfort in.

Intergenerational trauma seemed to really resonate with audience members, and I think if we're looking for conversation topics, this would be a great one to explore with friends and loved ones that you feel safe sharing with. Part of the event included a sound bath and an audience Q& A, each of which are going to be released as bonus episodes, so I strongly recommend checking those out.

Don't forget to subscribe, share, and I really encourage you to please leave a review. We'll be back next week with Step 8, Releasing Defenses. So stay critical, stay connected, and I'll see you next time.