Whatsjust presents Critical Conversations
Dr. Abbie Henson dives into critical conversations with those who have been directly impacted by the criminal justice system- whether through lived experience, research, or both. These conversations get into the weeds on complex justice-related issues and encourage listeners to think critically, challenge existing narratives, and cultivate change through dialogue.
Guided by the belief that systemic change stems from individual change and individual change stems from exposure to new ideas and a heightened awareness of self and others, the purpose of this podcast is to ultimately inspire transformation in both the listeners and, ultimately, the criminal legal system.
Whatsjust presents Critical Conversations
How to Make Heterosexuality Less "Tragic" with Dr. Jane Ward
This episode features Dr. Jane Ward, professor and chair of Feminist Studies at the University of California, Santa Barbara, and author of the recent book, The Tragedy of Heterosexuality. In this conversation, we explore the complexities of heterosexuality, its historical context, and the implications of gender dynamics in relationships. We discuss
- The evolution of marriage
- Exploring sexuality
- The commodification of relationship advice
- How to be a feminist
I would love to hear your feedback, take-aways, or comments. So pease feel free to text at the link above or email whatsjustpod@gmail.com And please follow Whatsjust on Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn and subscribe to the weekly newsletter to get details on where and when the next live Critical Conversation is happening!
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Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Critical Conversations
01:42 Understanding the Tragedy of Heterosexuality
06:06 Historical Context of Heterosexuality
10:00 Sexuality as a Choice
14:54 Queering Relationships and Gender Dynamics
19:53 The Misogyny Contradiction
21:50 The Heterosexual Repair Industry
26:41 Exploring Feminist Frameworks in Relationships
29:02 The Role of Men in Feminism
32:31 Navigating Sexuality and Gender Identity
36:40 The Importance of Values in Relationships
41:50 Feminism and the Dating Scene
46:36 Redefining Relationships Beyond Heteronormativity
51:51 Hope and Transformation in Heterosexual Relationships
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Please listen carefully. Welcome to Critical Conversations. I'm Abbey Henson, a criminologist and qualitative researcher passionate about sharpening our critical thinking skills so we can all play a role in building a more just and compassionate world. In each episode, we'll unpack complex perspectives, challenge our assumptions, and invite the kind of growth that deepens our connection to ourselves, each other, and the communities we move through.
Today's episode features Jane Ward, and I couldn't be more excited for this interview. My girl Dorothy shared an Instagram post with me from the cut highlighting Ward's work, and I knew immediately that I needed to talk to her. Jane Ward is a professor and chair of feminist studies at University of California Santa Barbara, where she teaches and writes about feminist politics and gender and sexual cultures.
Ward is the author of multiple award-winning books, including The Tragedy of Heterosexuality, Not Gay, and Respectively Queer. She's also co-editor of the new Witch Studies Reader. She's the founder of the AltaZena chapter of Showing Up for Racial Justice and serves on the board of the AltaZena-based mutual aid organization, My Tribe Rise. When she's not teaching, writing, and engaged in community organizing, she works as a consultant and trainer for educators and nonprofit organizations
wishing to support children's gender diversity and self-determination. This episode dives deep into the tragedy of heterosexuality. Our conversation has been on my mind since, especially as someone currently navigating the dating world. No matter your sexual identity or gender, this episode is sure to make you think critically about how you engage in relationships.
I came out of this conversation with so many more questions and so much curiosity, and I would just love to hear your thoughts and questions that it may raise for you. You can send me a text or email. The contact info can be found in the show notes. Also, I keep this podcast free of all advertisements, and therefore I really rely on you all as listeners to spread the word and increase exposure through your reviews.
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I read each of them and it really allows me to feel connected to you and to see that we're really in community with one another. So again, I hope that you enjoy this episode and feel expanded through its content. Thank you so much for speaking with me today. I'm wondering if you can first for our listeners just define what the tragedy is and why you define heterosexuality in that way. Sure. So.
I used the word tragedy because for me tragedy evokes a crisis that you can see coming and yet you do much about it. There's a kind of inevitability of the crisis. And to my mind, because the book is so much about the way that this crisis is reproduced with every generation, despite feminist critique and analysis and intervention, and yet
it still happens and people still invest in the fantasy of what heteronormativity will provide. For me, that's what made it feel tragic. I guess, you know, I could have used other kinds of words, but it's that perpetual ceaseless, I think in the book I call it, you know, that there's a kind of uncanny attachment to heterosexuality that doesn't make a lot of sense in terms of its
deliverables. And of course, I don't mean heterosexual sex or, you know, or even in a certain way, a heterosexual relationship, it's about straight culture. And it's about the promises of straight culture. Yeah, that was kind of a tricky discernment between the two. And I think what you say that gives it a lot of understanding is this idea of like, you can say, you know, I'm anti racist, or I'm not racist, but that doesn't deny racism.
you know, or the existence of racist culture. So I think that that's a really important thing for listeners entering this conversation to hold on to is like we are critiquing a culture and when you feel that that criticism is reflected on you really what
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is an opportunity for self reflection and more questions about why you feel defensive in this or where you feel that criticism is actually landing for you to then feel like you identify with it even. I really like that it takes on straight culture. So when I was reading this book, I was like, having so many aha moments and just like, yes, like I think I said yes out loud 20.
plus times and particularly with that first chapter really demonstrating the history of heterosexuality and so I was wondering if for our listeners you can kind of give us an overview because this idea that men are lusting for women or want women but don't particularly like women is so prominent in today's culture and even I was on Instagram earlier and there was this post that was like
study reports women speak 1000 more words a month than men or something like that. And I went into the comments and every man was like, yeah, you better like you best know this, like we and we all have to listen and then all the women in the comments are like, it's because we have to say the same thing twice and da da da and just the hatred among the two is so evident in this post today and
Unpacking why that may be from a historical perspective was so fascinating. So yeah, I'm wondering if you can just give that overview. Sure. Yeah. So I think most people know or have have an inkling of awareness that marriage, heterosexual marriage for much of human history was mostly an economic and pragmatic kind of arrangement. It didn't require love or romance.
And even though, you know, we have some literary examples of that, for instance, it was rare that that would be foregrounded and people were sort of fortunate if they felt that kind of attachment to each other because really marriage was a side of labor, you know, and reproduction and a place where men passed on their property and possessions to their male heirs. And so women were kind of the
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reproductive laborers of that situation under patriarchy. And so there's no expectation that men loved or respected women and mostly what's required of women historically has been obedience because the structure of those of human relationship has been patriarchal. So
I argue in the book that it's in the same way that we wouldn't expect to eliminate racism in the United States after four centuries of white supremacy. It doesn't actually make a lot of sense that we would, as humans, be able to snap our fingers and eliminate misogyny and patriarchy in a process of healing, I hope.
I mean, you know, I think we're hopefully evolving, but we can 100 % see the legacy of that long history. And that history doesn't start to change really until the 20th century. And if we're talking about the history of heterosexuality, of course, there have been people since the dawn of time who've engaged in what we now call heterosexual sex, just as people always engaged in what we now call homosexual sex.
But those two categories weren't even invented until or named anyway until the 19th century when they become a type of person. And then in the 20th century, we get this new ideal and aspiration, which is companion at marriage. There's a hope anyway among social reformers and a lot of whom were eugenicists that husbands and wives could come.
to like each other, love each other and like each other and support one another and have some degree of mutual mutual regard for one another. And what they found is that that was actually very difficult to accomplish. And it was it was difficult to sell actually to people, especially to men who didn't see what they stood to gain from that. And so there are many examples of this in the book from some of the early, know, early 20th century.
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marriage advice manuals. And I draw quite heavily in this book on the anthropologist, feminist anthropologist, Afsana Najmabadi's work in Iran and on the transition to modern heterosexuality in Iran. And it's a very similar kind of story of the state, the medical profession, like different powerful institutions trying to convince men try
to not hate women. So the question becomes like, Why would there be an investment in getting men to not hate women? And in the US, what I found by going into the archive is that, you know, it was really about trying to get white men to treat white women better, their white wives better, so as to preserve the white race and the resilience of the white heterosexual.
nuclear family. And so, you know, that I wasn't expecting to find that so many of these books were written by eugenicists who had had, you know, an investment in whiteness as their primary, primary aim. Yeah, God, it's so fascinating and so obvious. Like when you start unpacking it, it's like, yeah, this all makes sense. And I'm curious, so
you know, through the history then, if we look at like women being sold to men or arranged marriages, heterosexuality in large part for women has been forced upon them in these ways and for men as, you know, means of preserving lineages. And so you make an argument and I'm curious because it's not fully like the thesis but I'm
you speak about sexuality as a choice. And I'm wondering if you can speak a bit more to that because, I that was fascinating as well. It comes up in different moments in the book and different parts of the story that I'm trying to tell. But I guess for me, where it's most important is at the end of the book when we're thinking about why women stay and
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and maybe also why men stay increasingly men are reporting high levels of dissatisfaction with heterosexuality as well. because one, you know, the story that we tell, and these are like kind of core pieces of straight culture, is that men and women don't really like each other, but opposites attract. There's, you know, a kind of romance in that tension that women want to rescue, bad men.
that men, you know, don't want to hear women speak, for instance, as you mentioned, but want to take care of women and protect women. There's the sense that men and women need each other more than they really want each other. It's an enduring the suffering of heterosexuality that, you know, become like a normal man or woman. And I talked quite a bit about how
culture of women's friendships, straight for straight women anyway, and bonding is about bonding over the misery of their relationships. And in certain way, we become kind of legible as a woman and you get to participate in women's culture through this suffering. And so it gets, it gets actually romanticized over and over and over again that, you know, this is how we just, this is just how we do it. And it's painful, but
ultimately it's worth it and in that there's something beautiful or poetic about the mystery. And so what I ask at the end of the book, I have some suggestions for men and some suggestions for women. And what I ask of straight women is to spend more time than I think most straight women do really thinking about what they get out of heterosexuality. And I think
That's an important, it's an important kind of exercise in agency basically, because if it's that miserable and women stay, I think it's really important to own what it is that makes it worth it. If it's, you know, the sex with men, if it's men's bodies, if it's, you know, the even like something that we might feel some straight women might feel some guilt about, like the protector element.
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to claim that rather than to continue to rehearse this narrative about how like there's no other choice because now we know of course there's another choice. With each generation more and more people come out as gay, lesbian, or bisexual seeing remarkable growth in the number of people who identify as non not fully heterosexual and the last triggers that just came out this year that leap
was primarily due to women, young women and Z women identifying as bisexual. And to me, there's just no way around the fact that that really challenges our understanding that we're all born with our sexual constitution intact, because otherwise what do we think is happening with each generation, you know, to our genetic makeup or whatever. What we know is that when we create the option to, you know, when we broaden our
range of options for how to express our sexuality, people use those, you know, they take advantage of them. And when we narrow them, and we punish people, then they don't. So I don't know if that's what you're asking about. that's where my mind went with that question. Yeah, yeah. In the book, you talk about how basically, you know, there was this Freudian perspective that you brought up where children can experience, you know, sexual feelings with
inanimate objects or anything really and then it gets channeled and socialized into these heterosexual norms often because although it's less now many homes are raising children in heteronormative dynamics and so that becomes just familiar and it also is what is socialized and so that becomes the story that we internalize that
we are just this. And so I like this idea that we can take ownership and because one of the things that you said that I thought was really important was how for many men, it's this idea that like they just have this natural animalistic urge. And so there doesn't have to be any really critical thought about why they like women or what draws them to women outside of just this
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sexual organ desire. I thought that was so interesting. I'm curious, you know, as we're talking about men and women in these fairly like stark and narrow concepts, as we queer dynamics, and we have more people who are identifying as trans, and then you have like women who are becoming men, is that even if they go into then like a heterosexual, seemingly heterosexual relationship,
is there a difference there because there's like an inherent queerness to the trans experience or like at what point does heterosexuality's bounds and queerness begin? Right. I mean, there's not one answer to that because there are many people, gay people, trans people who are invested in the gender binary, who are invested in probably conventional ways of thinking about gender and sexuality. So
This is just to note that there's quite a political and ideological and cultural spectrum within these groups. I think the way that I want to answer that question is to say that queer people, would say specifically lesbians and lesbian feminists, have been trying to intervene and help repair straight culture for
many decades. We can see some places actually where lesbian feminists have offered something quite valuable to straight people. one example of that, for instance, is around sex education about sex and pleasure. So it used to be when I was growing up in like the 80s, if you wanted to go buy sex toy, you would go to some sticky shop that was dark.
and there would only be men in there. And if you were a woman, you know, they're gonna stare at you and you're probably not gonna feel comfortable in that space. And what happened is that, you know, queer feminists in the 90s started opening these feminist sex shops, Good Vibrations, Choice in Babeland, The Pleasure Chest, you know. And these are well-lit spaces staffed by really informed people of many different genders, but often
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most entirely queer people who, you know, have taught straight people like, yeah, you can put your finger in a straight man's butt and it doesn't mean he's gay or you can incorporate a vibrator into your sex and it doesn't mean that this man is a failure because he's not, you know, just basic things. And so I think queer people
In some ways, as I was writing this book, you know, because I talked to many queer people about the book and they, and you know, queer people complain about straight people all the time. And so one of the chapters, I kind of capture some of those complaints. And one of them was about like how tired we are of listening to straight people complain about their partners. It's kind of a alienating experience and a baffling experience. And it's one, you know,
Many, many a queer person has asked, do they even like each other? Like, you know, why? So I think in some ways, as I was writing this book, I was thinking like, this is is yet another offering from queer subculture to straight people, which is, there's another way to think about relationship. And so at the end of the book, I offer to straight men.
that they could have a more lesbian way of relating to straight women. That's my hope anyway. Yeah, I loved that idea of like, for especially straight men that it's not that they're straight, it's that they're feminist. And I think that that's a really important distinction. Like first, for them to question what does it mean to be straight?
then for them what does it mean to be feminist and if that means loving women then yeah you are a feminist and that doesn't make you gay and that doesn't make you like alt if that's something that you fear and if there were our fears around identifying with those groups the groups that would give criticism or shame like that's where we have to turn the critical gaze to it's not like if you shouldn't internalize that shame we need to explore and critique
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this culture, this straight culture, the patriarchy, all these things that aren't working for men either. I see this in my students all the time. It's really not working for anyone. Yeah, I love the flip of the script where, you know, so many straight people are like, I'm your ally to queer people. And they're like, the fear and the danger of being queer. And it's like, yes, there is like danger to that. But also, there's a lot of danger.
in being straight. And we see this in intimate partner violence and death by husbands and male partners. And yet we have this flipped narrative. And I love that you're like, actually, us queer people are your ally, because y'all are endlessly complaining to us. And we're like holding space and supporting you through this. So yeah, I really appreciated that.
acknowledging our labor. And I mean, think you're getting to a couple of the concepts that I hope are useful in this book. mean, one is the misogyny contradiction, which I kind of place at the heart of my argument or my analysis in the book, which is that, you know, boys and men are raised in a culture, straight boys and men are raised to understand themselves as attracted to women, to girls and women.
even as they are also encouraged to hate girls and women. And that that is a deeply contradictory state for boys and men, and it produces all sorts of problems. So then, you know, I ask, is it possible that we could reconceptualize heterosexual masculinity so that straight men understand themselves as liking women so much, being so into women that they actually like women?
I don't mean to like weaponize homophobia here, but I do kind of play around in the end of the book by saying, you know, look, there's a way that straight men's attraction to women feels kind of half-baked. It doesn't feel very convincing because men, straight men often seem like they have more respect for other men than they do for women. And so, you know, maybe that's a bit gay.
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Yeah. you want to show receipts on your real attraction to women and your real heterosexuality. So that's why I say what we're trying to do here is not make straight people queer. What we're trying to do here is actually deepen heterosexuality so that people's experiences of it are aligned with what it claims to do or be. Yeah. I want to talk about the heterosexual repair industry.
because I got you know, one of my previous partners is like heavy in the heterosexual repair industry, like Instagram gurus type. it was just really fascinating to read about that in your book and think about how yeah, the the tragedy of heterosexuality has been commodified now and so much of it.
really holds true to the binary of like you even mentioned Esther Perel and like this idea that opposites attract and the thing that decreases eroticism is familiarity and you need to maintain some level of mystery. And so much of the heterosexual repair industry is fueled by female or women patrons who are so deeply unhappy.
that they're like endlessly looking for information and to do the work to try and make themselves better to try and you know, we're burdening ourselves even more to try and figure out how to be happy in these heterosexual relationships. And so I'm wondering if yeah, you can talk about that. And also, because I feel like what I'm pushed, even though I consider myself pansexual, I feel like I'm much more pushed on the heterosexual
repair industry on my algorithms and I'm curious if there is an existence of a homosexual repair industry or queer repair industry at all. Well, I'll answer that part first. I do see that for gay men. I have not seen it as much for lesbians. I think the thing that really is the alternative to this industry is
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feminism, a feminist framework that is part of your North Star in a relationship, then that becomes like an ethical touchstone. And when you don't have that, there's, you know, various kinds of hierarchies and power differentials go unchecked.
and people internalize them and there's a lot of self-hatred. And I think because gay male culture is, you know, there's kind of, there are age hierarchies, beauty hierarchies, body hierarchies that aren't checked by a feminist politics. You know, it makes sense to me that there are these books that are like, you know, how to get your dream man in 10 easy steps sort of thing increasingly for gay men.
I mean, basically the heterosexual repair industry is the industry that capitalizes on the tragedy of heterosexuality. So it's clear with each generation, men and women don't like each other. They're not getting along and yet their heterosexual relationships are held up as the gold standard for relationship. And so what better possible, you know, market demand could there be than
these millions of people who are confused about what they're doing wrong, that their, you know, their promised heterosexual happiness is not arising. So this looks like, as you said, know, a gajillion self-help books, podcasts, social media influencers, workshops, therapy, you know, just all the things. I mean, I would also say that there are products that I think
arguably are part of the heterosexual repair industry too. know, even, you know, everything from like douching to certain beauty products to even certain kinds of diets and gym members, like they're marketed to people with the premise being that this might help resolve, you know, that this will keep it hot, which is, you know, is kind of the underlying message of Esther Perel and many others. And she's certainly
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very smart and it's, not, I think there's a lot of value in her work, but ultimately many of these people return to the same premise, which is that because heterosexual relationships are not going to work naturally, there's certain kinds of labors and manipulations that you have to do to, you know, smooth out the conflicts and contradictions, things you have to do to your body, sexual and romantic things that you have to do to keep it sexy. And they think,
there's an alternative to that. And where I have found that alternative is in feminist relationships, specifically lesbian feminist relationships. Yeah, so I wanted to jump in before, can you just define for those who are maybe confused or just don't know what is a feminist framework? Yeah, I mean, for me, feminism is the movement for gender justice. I know that's kind of a dissatisfyingly broad umbrella, but
me that's what it is. And it's important that that's what it is because it recognizes that all of the aspects of our gender identities, our gender expressions, how gender shows up in the world, the way we are gendered by the external environment, all of that is often unjust and is used against us. So to counter that, we need to have a critical analysis all the time about
how gender is showing up in our, not just, you know, our workplaces, our schools, our government, you know, but also in our homes and in our relationships. So for me, feminist relationships are relationships where we together anticipate the inequalities that might appear in the relationship and we actively work together to resist them. And so,
that can look like, you know, you have monthly marriage check-ins that can look like you have a parenting division of labor contract that can look like, you know, chore charts that I don't know, you know, it can look like lot of things, but it's about making explicit that things are probably not going to go well unless we talk about this race, you know, directly. Yeah. I think, you know, again, going off of the parallel of races, I'm like,
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I teach in my class this concept of anti-racism and it's not necessary like you just saying well I'm not racist doesn't do anything for the cause. But to be anti-racist is to be intentional in creating safe spaces and speaking up and all these things and so yeah I'm thinking about like it's not just
like, well, I love women. It's like, no, are you going to be feminist though? Like, are you going to be anti racist? Are you going to be feminist? Like, are you going to actually speak out and make a physical and visceral and all the efforts to demonstrate your love for women? think that's because, you know, I'm curious, you have a son. And I'm so curious in your raising of a son, how sexuality is being framed for him if he comes out
as like desiring and being attracted to women, how to navigate that. And I'm like, what I talk about with my friends a lot is we're like, these men that are perpetuating the gender binary and all this are sons of mothers. Like, at what point does that disconnect happen? At what point?
Are they, how are these women not teaching their sons about like, where is the disconnect there? And how can we influence new generations to if they are identifying as heterosexual, if they do an internalized critique of like, okay, what, what do I want? And what am I attracted to? And what feels, you know, it's really hard to parse natural versus socialized. And so I think that's an interesting self exploration. But if it comes out that just like,
I am attracted to the opposite sex, then how do we make sure that it's done in this feminist way? Right. I have so many thoughts about that. Well, first I'll say that I have the book that I'm working on right now is a parenting book that answers precisely some of the questions that you raised. I mean, I think it's worth noting that, especially after Michael Brown was killed and BLM,
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was formed, Black Lives Matter was formed, a national infrastructure of organizations were created where white people who wanted to do racial justice work could go and get plugged in and do that work. And so I, for instance, started a chapter of a national organization called Surge showing up for racial justice.
It's specifically for white people who want to get involved in doing anti-racist or racial justice work in their communities. We have no, not a one similar organization for feminist men. We require pretty much nothing of feminist men. We're really excited if a man just is willing to wear a t-shirt that says, you know, this is what a feminist looks like. We just got real thrilled about men even, you know, using the word.
So one place that we need to start is by saying, you know, the racial justice movement is a really good model for what this could look like. So men, it's time to build that infrastructure so that when, you know, as we move, you know, we're living, you know, in the authoritarian regime now. And as we move closer and closer to Handmaid's Tale,
Men are actually organized to do something about it rather than just like be a good man inside their home. That's not going to help us. So you always, always have to start, you know, with personal transformation. But then the very next step is get organized, connect with other feminist men, get out there doing this work. And what's it's baffling to me, I've heard women say, you know, well,
Can you imagine a group of men together, know, trusting a group of men to get together and talk about feminism? And to me, that sentiment is precisely the problem. It's like, we don't trust. They want to mother men or they want to like get in there and micromanage. It's like, I can imagine it because I dream of it all the time that men would do that, because they need to do that. Yeah. So.
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Maybe they need more of the invitation. I don't know, but I'm putting it out there every day. Organize, just self-organize. Yeah, yeah. I'm so caught in this idea of the choice and really doing a critical analysis of what is being socialized. Because I know, you know, I hear this sentiment all the time, like, I wish I was a lesbian. It would just make my life so much easier.
Or even I hear that from men of being like, I wish I was gay, it would just be so much easier. And so there is this sentiment that there is no chance. Like, I've tried and I'm just not sexually drawn to the idea of a vulva or of a penis or whatever. Do we think like in your mind then is that because we've been socially, you know, shaped to believe that these things are wrong or
Or do you think that there are just like these natural draws to certain genders? Yeah, I mean, I think that what I personally believe is that that is a complex mix. You know, I think we do have reactions to bodies that are very real to the smell, even a body part. Like my wife is like one of those people who's like, well, maybe I could have been with men, but I hate the way they smell.
And so that's interesting to me. And you know, there are definitely feelings about like the look and smell of vaginas. And so I think it's worth giving some credit to that. But even that doesn't mean that it's, there's not an element of the social because we know that people on Survivor remember when they used to have to eat like
foods that they've never eaten before. They were a delicacy of another culture, but they would make them throw up. You know, if you haven't grown up with a food, you might throw up. And that's very real. And yet someone else thinks that's the best food ever. Even our bodies get oriented towards certain kinds of desires and feelings. And they become very real to us. They feel, you know, they feel like home. I'm someone who's very interested in
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in all realms of my life in kind of pushing on or exploring things that I take for granted about myself. Why am I femme? What would it be like if I wasn't? I've always, you know, I was straight for a while and then I was bi for like a second and then I was a lesbian. But once I came out as a lesbian, I pretty much only exclusively only interested in female masculinity, you know.
people who at the time were called bush. And I was like, what's up with this? So I was very interested in sexual experiments. Like, what would it be like to be with another femme? What does that bring up in me? Why am I having a resistance around that? I now have, I wasn't intending to do this, but it just sort of happened organically. I've been coaching women mostly who are come out late in life after a long marriage to a man. And in many ways, some of these women
experienced that as a kind of rational or pragmatic choice that the relationship with men did not serve them was painful and that they have so much more alignment with and love and respect for women that why not make that, you know, where sex and partnership lies. So that's been very rewarding and interesting to me to do that work.
I think it's, I know it's possible because I've seen it. Some gay women say, I wish I could be a lesbian. Yeah. I always first ask, ask, well, have you tried? They make sure they know that it's not that hard. You just do it. And, and then if, and then if people are like, no, really? You know, I really am drawn to men. Well, then great. That's fantastic news because that means that you have clarity about why, you know, what's worth it.
about relationships. Yeah, so for women and men, for women first on the dating scene who are going on dates with men, what might be some of the important questions or things to suss out to ensure that there might be? And I struggle with this question because I don't want it to be like within the heterosexual repair industry framework.
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But to ensure that there is a feminist framework, what might be some things to look out for, some questions to ask, some reflective prompts to provide? Geez. I mean, I would hope that women could simply ask, are you a feminist? I am. That's important to me. And if he says no, wow, that's really useful information. Yeah. Yeah. Because yes, then
Amazing. I love that. What does that mean to you? You mean, I think nobody wants to feel like they're being tested. You know, that could be in a kind of an intense, tell me what your definition of feminism on this date, but checking in around that basic ethical, I'm not even going to say political to me, it's ethical, an ethical alignment. Like, you know, do you want
Do you care about what happens to girls and women in this world? Are you noticing the attacks on women's basic freedoms that are happening right now? What are your thoughts on that? Are you disturbed? I mean, that's just kind of being a human right now, 101, I would hope. The problem is that I'm hearing that men are catching on to the fact
that women are more likely to agree to go on dates with them if they appear to be more liberal on dating apps than they are. And that's really telling that men are willing to lie about that, misrepresent themselves. And I also recently went to Paris to give a talk. And while I was there, I was talking with a journalist, a feminist journalist, and she was saying,
And she's an expat. She moved from the US to France recently about a year and a half ago. And she was saying that in Paris, sexism certainly exists, but misogyny is not palpable in the way that it is in the United States. And I asked her what she meant by that. And she said that, you know, it feels in Paris that men are very interested in women. You know, there's a sort of respect and admiration for women. And it might.
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You know, it is driven in part by like women are beautiful. I want to have sex with women, you know, women, women, women. But it's not like you scratch the surface and then right underneath there is like, fuck your bitch. In the US, the vibe is one of like often kind of contempt conquering you. And so some I say this only to say that, you know, some of this is about American masculinity. And I think what's hard for American women right now is that
I think many of us assumed that with each generation, men would get more feminists. And what we're seeing actually is that that is not happening. In fact, it's going, know, younger generations of men are becoming more conservative and more receptive to misogynistic baiting, you know, by other men, kind of recruiting them into that way of thinking. Yeah, it's terrifying.
So then men who are going on the dating scene, if they are like, you know, I think I'm a feminist, but I don't really know, like, how can I become more informed? Other than your book, which I have literally pointed like all my male friends to, are there other seminal pieces that you think men and boys should be reading or tuning into to learn more? I mean, a basic
Google search on like feminist men, feminism for men, if that's going to make them feel better about it. Otherwise, they could just get into some real intro feminist books like bell hooks, all about love. Everybody loves that book. You know, I'm trying to think of what would be some other kind of feminism 101 sort of text. There's a lot of pop feminist literature now that's just like how to be a feminist that men could pick up.
they don't have to, I mean, it's great if they want to buy an academic feminist book like mine, but they can really get something very, a quick read. There's so much of that out there. What they shouldn't do is expect women to do all the work for them because that's obviously just reproducing the product. Yeah. Yeah. This is as someone who got out of a relationship with a man six years or six months ago and
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I've predominantly only had longer term relationships with men. I've had several sexual relationships with women, some of which have been a bit deeper, but going back on the dating scene, especially having read your book is really, I mean, I'm really doing the work of asking that question of like, what would a straight relationship give me? It's so funny because
I was posting on my stories about interviewing you and I can't even tell you the number of women who responded who are in heterosexual relationships. Like I need to read it. I can't wait to hear this episode. Like so many people are curious about this and I can see like it was making a really good case for being a lesbian. I know that's not your intention, but man, do you come out of it and you're like,
get it and I think that's why men need to read it because then they can understand why women might read this and feel that way and how they could what they could do to counter that and it just there's so many like I feel like out of this book there needs to be an appendix of like self-reflective prompts you know and like or like a journaling prompt for both sexes both genders of you know what exploring like
know, your how you were raised and how that plays into your belief systems about gender roles. What was the role of your mother in the home? What was the role of your father? Or if you had same sex parents, what were their roles? What were you taught? Because one of the things that I found so interesting, I was, I've been doing so much reflecting on relationship and even just within like the heteronormative nuclear family, if that makes sense for me too, and
thinking about why we even lead towards partnership and if that's a social construct within the patriarchal framework and what that looks like, not even thinking about like polyamory or something that's already labeled and has its set of rules, but just thinking like, if we prioritize community over partnership or things like that. I was thinking about how I was raised and so often the narrative that I internalized, particularly from my grandfather and from my father was like,
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you should be with someone who has their shit together and is financially stable and successful in their career and all of these things. Even though I would say both of them are like feminist in their own ways, they still were kind of funneling this heteronormative narrative that recreates the gender binary. And I realized through that when I thought about my relationships, no one taught me the importance of feeling comfort and ease with a partner like rather than being like,
you should be with someone who you feel comfortable with, who brings you a sense of ease. And because of that, I was looking at and seeking those external kind of surface level factors, and really putting my ease to the side, there was so much discomfort I felt in so many of those relationships. And just thinking about what we've been taught over time to look for or to value and
of breaking those molds for ourselves as women too. I think a lot of the work, you know, not to overburden women, but the work for women too is to undo or not undo, but look critically at their own internalized misogyny and internalized homophobia and all those things as well. I mean, I love these insights. And what I feel like you're getting at is that there are many,
options that are not about, I guess it's time to become a lesbian. Sometimes it's about right sizing the relationships with men because for many women I think you know they enjoy sex with men or they enjoy certain kinds of things but partnership with men is not really working for them. Well great, you don't have to be partnered with men. You can have sex with men, you go out with men, whatever. You can, exactly as you said, you can
you know, make your friendships more primary in your life. You can make community more primary in your life. Many women get to a point where they decide that sex isn't that important to them anymore. Many women get to a point where they decide that they are happy being in their marriage, but they need to have their own, they need to have a room of their own. They need their own bedroom.
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Some women actually get up the courage to say, meet my own apartment and let's stay together, but I need my own space. This often doesn't happen until women like go through menopause. There's something kind of magical I think where women are like, can't, you know, I no longer can put up with this. And women kind of find their power and start asking for the things that they need. And often there's an element of autonomy because so much of being a woman
is service, know, service to men, service to kids, where women kind of take that back. The other thing that you identified is like, he's being important in a relationship. And that's a really beautiful one. For me, probably first and foremost is like values alignment. I'm not a religious person. I'm an atheist. So my politics are my ethical system. And I just could not be with somebody who didn't share them. And it
creates a safe container. It also creates a hot container because for me, know, feminism is very sexy. So that keeps the fire stoked. so, and queerness, the absence of sexual shame, sexual creativity, like honesty, sexual honesty, which often isn't part of some straight relationships. All of these, I think this is a thing kind of getting back to like part of why straight people have to
do so many things to keep it sexy is because they're not actually being real with each other because being real with other people is very intense and that can really animate a sex life. Totally. God, I literally need like three more hours but I want to be mindful of your time. There's just so many questions and I hope that people leave this conversation
not feeling defensive. So I just did an interview with Prentice Hemphill and they're a somatic practitioner. in the interview, they were saying like, you know, I am constantly in healing, I'm always a work in progress. And in response, there was kind of my gut response was like, Oh, god, that sounds so exhausting. And their response to that was like, it's way more exhausting to rip
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and suppress and all these things and I think when thinking about like the exploration outside of heterosexuality or the exploration of what it means to be in a feminist relationship to some people that might be like god that's so much work or like I don't even know where to start or that seems really intimidating but then on the flip side of thinking about
the work that it takes to be in an unhappy relationship and the pain and the suffering that we go through in that. just kind of as a reminder that it's like, you know, you got to choose choose the path you want to maybe even if it is work.
which is ultimately going to lead to a greater sense of liberation and truth and happiness. So I hope that people leave this conversation feeling energized, feeling more curious, and just more open to these very important questions that you pose to all of us around what sexuality is, what relationship can look like, and where it can go because I think the other thing that I don't want people to leave feeling is hopeless.
And I think that you do a good job, particularly at the end of the book, in giving a sense of hope that there are ways that we can have deep heterosexuality as you describe it and thinking about how to engage in these feminist hetero relationships. I love the call out of being like, y'all, it's a little gay that you don't actually love. That's so good. Yeah, I'm gonna hold on to that.
Thank you so much. I love everything. I'm a big fan of Prentice's and I love everything that you just said about that. And I do feel hopeful if only because we can only go up from where heterosexuality is. Totally.
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God, I feel like I needed three more hours with that conversation. It's been a couple days since the interview and I feel like I'm still processing it all, but I would say the most salient is just the critical self-reflection. Thinking about what I get out of being with certain people, whether I'm actually attracted to men or whether I'm just attracted to the idea of being seen as attractive by men due to our social constructions of validation.
There's so much to unpack here. I also think the parallel between the racism and sexism and misogyny is a really useful way to view this. I think Me Too was definitely a calling out, which was necessary. But I would say the move that we saw in 2020 towards racial justice and the increase in the use of anti-racism.
understanding that it has to be an active position is a calling in. And this is, I think, what would be necessary if we actually want to see change in heteronormative relationships and an increase in happiness is if we're creating spaces for men to be called in to then do the work. There's so much here, but I am just so excited to hear what you all think, where this is leading your mind.
whether you're having these conversations now with your friends and what they're saying. So please again, reach out, email, text. It's all in the show notes for the contact info. Stay curious and I'll catch you next time.