The Borderwall, Prisons, and Other False Symbols of Safety with Laiken Jordahl

In this episode, I speak with Laiken Jordahl, a Borderlands Campaigner with the Center for Biological Diversity. In our conversation, Laiken describes the devastation that the border wall is wreaking on the land, wildlife, and indigenous communities. We speak about how, like prisons, the border wall serves as a false symbol of safety that is touted to make "America" secure but, in reality, is causing direct harm to American communities. Laiken schools us on the legal loopholes that have justified the destruction of indigenous sacred sites and shares stories of activism occurring in indigenous communities. If you would like to support tribal land and the communities most impacted by the wall construction, please consider donating to the Oodham Land Bail Fund.

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Transcript

Abbie: [00:00:00] Welcome to critical conversations. My name is Abbie Henson and I'll be the one conversing with our guests. And I also serve as an assistant professor in the school of criminology and criminal justice at Arizona state university. After the killing of George Floyd, my social media blew up. I kept seeing posts and reposts and stories all about criminal and social justice issues.

However, much of what I was seeing were just. Flat words that lacked voice and depth and nuance. And so I wanted to create a space where those words could come alive. I wanted to engage in dialogues with people who had actually been impacted by the criminal justice system, whether through their own experience research or both, I felt this was the moment to think critically to examine the complexities of our system in place today.

And to figure out how to move forward in a way that allows for equity and true justice. So I started hosting live webinars, both in an attempt to have the audience be active participants either by raising their hand and joining the conversation, or by contributing a question to the chat box and to also build a sense of community and togetherness in a time when we were.

So isolated through quarantine. So all of the episodes that you're about to hear on this podcast are converted from those lives streets. And while it can be really overwhelming to think about how to change a massive system, that seems so ingrained in the fabric of our society by participating in these conversations.

And yes, You just listening to this podcast is participating. That is where we are. See true change beginning. Hey everyone. Thank you so much for joining me in this critical conversation with Laiken. Jordahl a borderlands campaigner with the center for biological diversity. Today's episode is a little different.

Instead of speaking directly to police or prisons, we speak on another false symbol of safety. The border wall Laken in this episode, schools us on the impact of the wall on indigenous community is the land and wildlife and highlights. How symbols of safety often result in tangible harm. I hope that you enjoy this episode, feeling engaged and please as always continue the conversation.

Once the episode is up. 

Laiken: [00:02:40] Thank you for having me. My name is Laiken Jordahl. I am the borderlands campaign here with the center for biological diversity based on occupied autumn lens in Tucson, Arizona kind of got my start in this world. Uh, first working with the national park service, um, on boldness conservation issues in the borderlands.

Also looking at the biggest threats to wilderness and Oregon pipe and big bend and these beautiful national parks and wilderness areas on the border. And I was shocked to find out that like the single biggest threat hands down in both of these areas was the threat of border militarization, border wall construction.

And essentially we were watching these federally protected wilderness areas be decimated by off-road driving from border patrol affiliations by the construction of border barriers, by the installation of surveillance technology. And it was really concerning to me because all of the laws that were supposed to protect wildlife, wilderness, cultural resources in these areas, uh, were being ignored or outright waived in order to facilitate.

Uh, the border security machine. Basically, I realized I did not want to work for the park service, especially under this current president. Um, and if I want it to actually protect these lands and protect the resources I was going to need to be. More active and directly advocating against this border security hysteria that is destroying the landscape that sustains us.

So that's kind of my history. Um, and yeah, now I, I helped run the campaign against the border wall with the center for biological diversity. And that means bringing awareness to all the endangered species that are impacted by wall construction. Uh, that means working with, uh, indigenous nations and activists to help stop the desecration of sacred sites, which are currently being blown up in bulldoze to build a wall and then just doing a lot of public education, uh, including, you know, policy work.

Um, but yeah, it has been a heartbreaking year. Um, it's kind of hard to believe that just one year ago there effectively wasn't even border wall construction in Arizona. 

Abbie: [00:04:45] I feel like you are one of the few who I know that I've actually seen what the wall looks like. I feel like people it's so abstract to so many people.

And because of that, it's not at the forefront of many people's minds. So can you just describe what it looks like? Like what is it made of how tall is it? What, like, who is patrolling it? Give us the visual. And also I think to touch on too. Cause I was surprised when I was looking at your videos, like I had that total visual that it was just flat land where the wall was being constructed.

But then to see your videos where these beautiful mountain ranges are being blasted. I mean, so what, yeah, if you can just put us in that setting. 

Laiken: [00:05:38] Yeah, I wish I could bring everybody onto the field with me. You know, I've had some pretty surreal moments out there, especially when I'm by myself, like actually standing in the shadow of this massive 30 foot structure that goes 10 feet deep into the ground as these massive concrete foundations.

Like you can hear the wind blowing through the structure. Um, it makes this like eerie howling sound, as it passes through the slats, these giant steel slats in the border wall. And like when you're out there standing in the shadow of the structure. No looking at all their actions, most of the time, and most of the places this was being built.

These are places where there is no human activity. There is no human development. So you're standing under this structure and you can't even see another human as far as the eyes can see, as far as the horizon goes, you know, these are places like the  mountains in Southeastern Arizona, which are rugged, wild, critical habitat for endangered Jaguars.

We know Jaguars use this corridor to cross. The U S from Mexico, we know that this is not a place with frequent immigration or smuggling activity. Um, you know, we talk to landowners who who've lived out there for for decades, and they are totally heartbroken at what's happening. But yeah, we have situations where we're watching mountains be blown up.

There's there's one location in Guadalupe Canyon, where the wall is going to go up 30 feet high. Right under a hundred foot cliff. I mean, it's just completely ridiculous. Hundreds of endangered species. Uh, we did, uh, an assessment basically identifying 93 different threatened and endangered species. These are species that are federally protected under the endangered species act.

Um, that would be, uh, harmed by border wall construction. Um, and when we did that report, You know, we were essentially looking at, okay, what wildlife have a critical habitat or important migratory corridors within areas where they could build the wall. And it was kind of like a, like a worst case scenario.

Like if, if they build the wall in all of these places, this is a list of all the species that could be impacted. Um, and it's heartbreaking because right now we're essentially seeing the wall go up. In all of these places, when we talk about the border wall, I mean, number one, it's this massive landscape scale destruction that was being built across this impose boundary that is the border.

Um, and that wall stops the migration of almost all wildlife, uh, that can't fit through the tiny little gaps in the politics. And that's catastrophic, especially for wildlife in the desert, uh, where animals have their own barn wide to find food, to find water, to find mates. This stops the migrations that wildlife have taken for literally millennia.

And it's not like animals can just figure out how to go around this massive wall. Um, it defies evolution, it defies logic. So yeah, it's, I mean, there's so many species of wildlife being impacted by this thing. Um, so this wall will actually stop the migration, not just the terrestrial wildlife, but also, um, some birds and bats that haven't evolved to figure out how to fly over these, these structures that we've imposed on the landscape.

But we're never going to get the cultural history back. That's been decimated, blasted, bulldoze. You can never piece back together archeological site or a sacred site or an indigenous grave site. Um, and it will take hundreds of years for, for cactuses, like these fires to grow back. 

Abbie: [00:09:12] So you just mentioned grave sites.

Are you, are they actually decimating grave site? 

Laiken: [00:09:17] Yes. Yeah. It's um, completely absurd. Um, and it's really, really important to note all of this wall construction that we're seeing in Arizona and across the rest of the border is taking place outside the scope of laws that were designed to protect.

Wildlife native American graves communities, clean air and clean water, endangered species. And most of you aren't aware of this. Um, there's this tiny legal loophole as what I would call it tucked into the real ID act of 2006, which is the law that determines how we get a driver's license. Uh, there's like two lines of legislative text that say.

The secretary of Homeland security can waive any law that they deemed necessary in order to rush border wall construction. Um, and very few people know this. Um, but the reality is all of this is taking place outside of the scope of the laws that were deliberated on by Congress. Uh, people fought like hell to get some of these laws passed.

Um, and they've just been waived with S with the struggle at Penn. Um, and the government can't waive laws for any other project. They can't wave laws to approve a highway or an air force base, or even a mine for critical minerals or whatever. This is the one federal projects for which they can just operate completely outside that scope of law.

And it's. Not a coincidence that border communities are almost entirely working class communities of color. I mean, this is a textbook example of environmental racism. Uh, this would never fly. And the suburbs in Connecticut. Yeah. It's it's, it desperately needs to be repealed. And we are working with legislators on the Hill to actually repeal that provision of the real IDX.

Um, and hopefully we'll have a chance to do that here soon. 

Abbie: [00:11:06] When did there, 

Laiken: [00:11:08] that was in 2006, the legislative text. And when you look at the history of the, the debate around this lobbying passed, it was abundantly clear that the legislators had no idea what they were voting on. This provision was tucked into the bill in a way that very few people understood the gravity.

And we've challenged this waiver in court it's clearly unconstitutional because it delegates. Legislative powers to the executive branch. We haven't been on elected, appointed official the secretary of Homeland security who is now deciding which laws they will. And won't enforce basic civics. That's obviously not.

Okay. Um, unfortunately we've been litigating this and the Supreme court just decided they didn't want to take up that case, um, which not a huge surprise, but. I mean, it's just stunning because now we have the federal government as the main perpetrator breaking all of these laws, um, waiving all of these laws and inflicting an incredible amount of your reversible damage on the borderlines.

And it's just like, people are stunned when they realize. The government can select which laws they want to enforce, which laws they want to break. It's in authoritarians, what dream. And we have this situation where, you know, all of the money going towards border wall construction in Arizona was stolen from department of defense budgets.

Congress refused to approve money for this. In fact, the Senate voted numerous times to overturn the bogus emergency declaration that the president's using to. On this project. Yeah. 

Abbie: [00:12:46] So can you talk about the communities specifically the nations that are being most impacted and their perspective on this and how, what activism has looked like down there?

Laiken: [00:13:01] No the most prominently you have the tongue automation, which itself has been cleaved into by this imposed border. There's a story about, you know, the surveyors in the 18 hundreds that were charting out the course of this line, an Optum elder walked down to them and said, what are you doing? Like, what are you surveying for?

Well, this is going to be the board. He's like, no, no, this is, this is all our land. This is all are connected. Community connected ecosystems. And from the very beginning, it's just been clear that this line has defied the fight logic, but the nation has been steadfast, uh, in their opposition to the border wall.

But we have a situation where we put these indigenous people into a confined space that was a fraction of the size of their ancestral lands. Um, and now. We're building walls all across ancestral lands of the Optum and many other indigenous nations. Um, but because those lands, aren't actually on the tribal reservation that the government and the department Homeland security is saying like, Oh, these aren't these aren't indigenous lands.

And we don't actually need to consult with you to build walls in these areas. And the chairman of the automation, Ned Morris, uh, just recently said in a webinar last week, um, they weren't even consulted about. The, the dynamiting, the literal blasting of one of their sacred sites. Uh, and they heard about that through the media.

Yeah. We had a situation where the federal government's just running rough shot, um, over sovereign tribal nations, uh, over other agencies, like the fish and wildlife service and the national park service. And that they're doing that enabled by, uh, this waiver of law. That stops groups like mine groups, like the center for biological diversity from litigating to hold them accountable for their horrific actions.

Well, 

Abbie: [00:14:54] obviously the government and our president and the Homeland security, they are the ones. With the authority, but who are the people like, have you interacted with the people who are actually building the site and who are actually dynamiting and how do they feel about being part of this? 

Laiken: [00:15:17] You know?

Yeah, that's a good question. And of course, you know, everyone comes at it from a different angle, from a different take. I always try to talk to construction workers when I'm down there to understand a little bit more about their ethos and how they sleep at night a lot. Of the people building this wall, cross the board from Mexico in order to labor a building this wall through the borderlands about half the license plates of the construction sites are from Sonora, Mexico.

And, um, I mean that in itself is a really interesting piece of information. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, I, I don't hold those workers in any contempt, you know, it's not, they're not the ones who are making these decisions. Many of them have no idea the impacts of what they're doing. I talked to one worker who, you know, was talking about the groundwater pumping and told me that the Wells was a thousand feet deep.

Um, and then told me, yeah, we don't, we don't pump water at night, so we let let the aquifer recharge. And this is the shit that they're being pulled from their supervisors. Right? Like they often believe the things that they're fed and the things that they're fed are full of racist tropes. Oftentimes we hear people justifying while construction saying this is going to stop.

Migration. This is actually gonna be good for the environment. Somehow building this massive wall and blowing up mountains. Uh, it's going to stop people from leaving trash as they pass through the desert. And these are the lies that are parroted by people like department of the interior, secretary, David Bernhardt, uh, people who are cheerleading this border wall project.

We also hear this dis gusting idea that the border wall is going to save the lives of immigrants because it'll stop them from crossing. It'll stop them from dying in the desert. And that's one of the most vile lies that I hear repeated all the time. And it completely fails to take into account the fact that, that, that we're talking about people who've risked their lives to walk across an entire continent.

Like nobody is doing this migration by choice. And if you're a 30 foot wall is going to stop them from reaching their goals. I think you have no idea that hell that they have put themselves through just to get to our Southern border. It's it's a wild situation. And, um, I think part of it too, and this is what things has been, we see throughout government ongoings and especially with ice and that permanent element security is the bureaucracy is designed to compartmentalize, uh, the different aspects of cruelty.

So no single actor, no single individual, no single agent. Really sees the full picture of the horrors that they're committing. And because of this, I mean, it's almost like bureaucratic violence, uh, that, that tries to hide, you know, the true picture of what's going on. And we've seen that with, with family separation, we see that with, with ice deportations and enforcement in urban areas, this is just, yeah.

Yeah. It's it's it's it's violence. I mean, this is structural violence. Um, and it's bureaucratic violence too, if that makes sense. Yeah. With 

Abbie: [00:18:24] the indigenous nations that are being impacted. I mean, what's the energy that they're putting out. Are they, I feel like I would be exhausted by the endless travesties and just, are they energized to go against this?

Like how, what is happening down there with those communities? 

Laiken: [00:18:46] So many different types of resistance. Um, and there's. A lot of tricky political issues within tribal government, but the automation as well. Um, on one hand you have the tribal chairman who is staunchly opposed to this project mean we've consistently has spoken out against it, but he has also voiced a support for incredibly invasive surveillance technologies called integrated fixed towers.

Um, so you have. People who oppose the wall, but support other aspects of, of, of violent border militarization. Um, and then you have a lot of younger activists with the tribe who are deeply opposed to all aspects of border militarization. Um, and they realized that these, these integrated fixed towers aren't going to fix anything.

They come with their own set of environmental concerns and significant civil Liberty concerns. You know, the ton of automation is one of the most sort of veiled and militarized places. In the country, tribal members actually have to drive through a border patrol checkpoint just to go outside of the nation.

If they want to receive medical care, go to the grocery store. Why is that well via these checkpoints, uh, border patrol sets up internally. Uh, they have dozens and dozens of checkpoints, um, where they essentially are allowed to racially profile people and they ask people if they're a us citizen, if there's any suspicion raised that they might not be racial profiling, you know, instantly judging somebody based on their looks and what they drive and how they speak.

Uh, they can pull them into secondary. And they can verify their identity. So tribal members are subjected to this just to go to the store, just to go to the hospital, just to leave the nation, leave these borders that, you know, we imposed upon them. Yeah. To answer your question, it's putting a lot on these indigenous activists, uh, to, to, to lead the fight and try and protect the sacred sites that are being desecrated.

You know, the energy is, is. It's overwhelming. It's heartbreaking, but I think there's a sense of, of conviction and of kind of just a long timeframe in this fight that I've just started to understand. Um, some of my Optum friends, they say that your temporary orders are temporary, but off them are forever.

And that is the fact that, I mean, this is, uh, a culture of people that has evolved. From this other landscape from the summer and desert, they're still active. They still speak the language that arose from their culture and community in that very desert. Um, so I think there's, there's a sense of, of time and endurance and persistence, uh, that defines a lot of their activism.

Um, and that's something that gives me a lot of hope. It's one of the few things that gives me a lot of hope right now. 

Abbie: [00:21:43] Uh, yeah, that's cool. I like that framework. I mean, it's unfortunate that it even has to be that way, but it's encouraging to know that that's part of their perspective. So what you said, and this is something that I've been thinking about.

Really critically over the last couple of months is just trying to understand our definitions of safety and how they defy or. I guess not our definition of safety, but how to go about obtaining it. And like, for me, I was thinking yesterday, I was reading this article about abolition and critical criminology.

And, uh, one of the things it was saying was how. Basically in order to obtain safety, we think that by eliminating or incapacitating one person after another that's somehow goning going to increase public safety. Really? This is. An issue that the community and state needs to take accountability for.

Right? This is a much broader issue. And by removing one small element that doesn't bend create public safety, like this idea of creating a border wall, but not caring about the communities that individuals would be crossing into our issue is that we're trying to abate by putting this wall up. I mean, it just.

Cause that's the thing too. You think about the immigrants that are coming into America, like the communities that they're residing in, that they can afford are already segregated. The people that we're trying to save from. The rapists and drug dealers that, you know, our governments tells that these people are.

And so what is it exactly if those who are crossing the border already? So segregated from the middle and upper class white people that we want to protect so badly, what is safety? Like? What are we getting from building this wall? 

Laiken: [00:24:00] I mean from the beginning it's, it's, it's been nothing but a campaign prop, right.

Beautifully simple. Right. You can take this infinitely complex problem as, as the right would frame it of, of immigration, of injustice, of insecurity. Um, and the entire solution to all of their fears can be symbolized by one physical structure. Uh, one that is so medieval in design. Um, I mean, it's, enviably simple, right?

Like the left doesn't have any simple solutions to these ideas because there are no simple solutions to these incredibly complex systems that we've, we've built for ourselves, but somehow, uh, through, I think a lot of fear-mongering, um, but also some, some wickedly brilliant ways of framing this issue. Uh, I think the president has been able to actually make people in Iowa, Ohio, Pennsylvania, wherever feels secure by reading these press releases by seeing these pictures of the wall going up by knowing that there is a physical structure on the border, uh, designed to stop people from coming into the country.

I mean, nobody not even border patrol thinks that this wall is going to make an impact on, on, on migration. Um, but it's not about that. And it's never been 

Abbie: [00:25:27] about that. Who have you spoken to at border patrol? Like how do you know that they're they don't think this and what have they said? Yeah. 

Laiken: [00:25:35] So, I mean, when you look back, you know, there's a lot of former DHS officials who have spoken out against the wall, you know, people who were in charge of.

Supporting thousands of folks who are also perpetrating a huge amount of injustice. Um, but even these agency heads, you know, during the Obama years and Bush era, they had come out against this project in terms of talking to agents on the ground. Um, you know, I, I worked with border patrol agents at Oregon pipe.

Um, it was an uncomfortable aspect of my job. It was also a really interesting case study and to seeing how these people view. The landscape and the world. And I mean, it's just, it's just a fact. You can climb over this 30 foot wall in about 30 seconds with a rope ladder that you made from supplies you bought at home Depot for $5 within days of this wall being built through Calexico Mexicali, uh, there were road ladders hanging over it, you know, I mean, it's not, it's not complex to figure out exactly how to defeat this thing.

But that doesn't take away from how potent of assemble it is. It's not about stopping people. It's about winning elections. It's about making people that, whether their lives fearing folks who look different from them, making those people feel safe and secure and securing their vote. And it's been incredibly effective at doing that.

Abbie: [00:26:55] I think that's something that's really interesting in terms of safety is the symbolism of safety and our how perspective. Is actually more effective than reality and cultivating a sense of safety. Right? We know that prisons don't deter crime and we know that prisons are actually create more. Problems that create more engagement in crime because of all the issues of community abandonment and criminalization.

And this stigma to me, I was just seeing some parallels as you were talking between the symbol of prison and the symbol of the wall, both as being ineffective and actually cultivating true safety, but being very, uh, successful in creating a perception of safety. And there, I mean, there's so much data and research that show that even when crime rates are going down, people still believe that there's an increase in crime just because of what the media is putting out.

And I think with this border wall, we are in an era where really all of our information is only absorbed. It's mainly absorbed through media and not experienced. And I think that's why I was so excited to talk to you because so few. We'll have had that true on the ground experience with this thing. And what we're seeing in the media is so vastly different than the reality of what it is.

And there's no discussion on the animals being affected or the land, or the fact that grave sites are being blown up. Like we don't know about this, you know, I. And I think that it's so able to happen in the background because of what you were saying, because it's the landowners and the people who are being impacted are not the white people that we care about in this country.

And so, although there are people up in arms from indigenous nations, we don't. Hear it, we don't see it. The media chooses to ignore it. I hope that people listen to this and really think about what it means and its purpose. And I mean, it also is just a huge waste of money. 

Laiken: [00:29:18] Yeah. Unbelievably. So your point about what does safety look like?

Like what really is, what does security mean? Like I remember taking a college course at U of a. And the question pose, can the border be secure ever? Like what does it mean to have a secure border? And is this an attainable goal? Because all of us border policy and the way it's operated, you know, for the last 30, 40, 50 years has focused on securing the border.

Uh, people from both parties consistently talked about securing. The border. Um, what does that even mean? Um, and it's never about the communities. It's never about the community safety insecurity. That's always about this notion of, of securing this thing that is poorest by design. Um, this thing that, you know, needs to be poorest in order for us to get the cheap goods and the cheap labor that we need.

I mean, it's just, so yeah, it's, it's just such a bizarre question and I think we need to really shift the conversation, uh, from talking about border security. That's talking about the safety of, of communities along the border. Yeah. I think it's just evolved into such a, such a confusing place. 

Abbie: [00:30:34] With the indigenous folks that you have spoken to who live in these areas?

I mean, what is there, is there a narrative around immigration there? Like, do they feel an impact from immigration? Is there a sense of threat and danger because of it? Are they like, what is the narrative around immigration around the border? 

Laiken: [00:30:58] Does some of the signs that my indigenous friends sometimes bring a protest, uh, you know, no one is illegal on stolen land.

That's a big one. And I think there's also this, uh, idea, you know, the border, uh, is not the problem. Immigration is not the problem. It's it's these draconian enforcement measures that subject tribal members to invasive searches. Severe brutality. That is the problem. And that's, what's creating the insecurity here.

When we have like members of the us house of representatives who consistently single out and be raped the tribe and imply that the tribe is involved in smuggling and blame the tribe for that. Uh, when in reality, I mean, this is, it's an occupied nation. It's occupied by a paramilitary force. It's occupied by.

Border patrol, which is one of the largest and least accountable law enforcement agency in our country. So yeah, I mean, there are, of course, uh, there are four issues that affect the auto nation. One of those issues is that our border policies, funnel hundreds of people into the nation's borders to die every single year.

Um, I mean, what does that. Do to the land, to the history of the land or the collective memory of the culture in the land. I mean, we're just watching an unspeakable amount of violence on unfold throughout the borderlands, uh, through the destruction of the ecosystems, but also, um, and we've, we've turned these beautiful wilderness areas into mass graves and like, That has an impact.

You know, I think there's, there's, there's such a sense of, of, I mean, I don't want to call it misfortune, but like what happens when there is a border imposed through your, your territory? Uh, how does that legacy play out? And it's pretty clear wherever that happens throughout the world, you know, whether it's the West bank or the automation.

Uh, it results in a huge amount of structural violence that amounts to people having their rights taken away from them. Um, and yeah, I think, you know, I am really encouraged that, that the struggle against this border and this border wall, uh, is one that's taking place in conversation with struggles around the world about border militarization.

Um, and that, that also is something that really encourages me. So 

Abbie: [00:33:29] what, like. What are you doing tomorrow? Like, what is the plan now? Like where, what are organizations doing to actually try and combat this? Like, what are the steps and, and what can listeners and viewers do to try and, you know, help in this situation?

Laiken: [00:33:53] No, I, I urge everybody to center. The land and this discussion, because that is where all of this injustice is truly playing out. What am I doing tomorrow? You know, right now we, we are working, um, extensively on a plan that would restore justice, uh, to this region. Uh, it's a really complicated discussion.

Like what does justice look like? How do we repair all of these wrongs? Uh, but one thing that's clear is that. The U S government bows an incalculable debt to the Optum, to all these other board of trabs. Um, I mean, we need reparations effectively, uh, for these communities that have been ripped into, by the wall, um, and terrorized by a history of, of border patrol occupation.

In addition to that, we're, we're looking at areas where we want to break the wall down first, you know, the most environmentally important areas there is where wildlife absolutely need to migrate back and forth across the border if they're to survive. Yeah. We we're, we're continuing to fight for the rights of border communities and repeal that waiver authority that has allowed while construction to just decimate an entire region, uh, with no consideration of, of, of all the harm that it causes.

Yeah. So. From that? 

Abbie: [00:35:17] No easy man. Well, I feel like I could talk to you all day and I kind of sure. I really, I feel like I've learned so much and. It just having these kinds of conversations and being able to think critically about its purpose and who it actually impacts and the longterm, like my biggest fear.

And I, I'm very happy to hear that there's like active plans and needs to tear it down because my fear is that even if. Construction stops. It'll kind of just become this structure that sits the idea that it would be torn down and that people are actively talking about that is encouraging the work that your organization and you are doing is so important.

And I'm so happy to see people on the ground. Is there anything closing that you want to leave people with a little mic drop 

Laiken: [00:36:21] moment? Just in response to you, you thought that, you know, maybe it would just be this structure that just stands there forever. I will say the level of shoddiness that we've seen in this construction project is stunning.

Um, I mean, some of these border wall panels are already separating from the other ones. Um, and it also, yeah, it's, if we leave this thing alone, it'll come tumbling down in a matter of decades and, and, and whenever I'm feeling overwhelmed and incredibly upset about the state of the world, um, I, I just try to remember that.

With enough time, this thing will all come tumbling down as will all of these systems of injustices that we've built. Yeah. The land is forever. We're just a little blip in that, but yeah, I'll just, I'll just leave it at that. The fact 

Abbie: [00:37:10] that the land is forever and also. I have to constantly remind myself of this when I think about prisons and when this wall, like these are systems and structures built by a group of humans.

And that means that another group of humans can tear it down. It's not ingrained in our culture, ingrained in our wellbeing, our society, these aren't just things that popped up in the earth. And that's, that is like, In land, like things pop up in land because all to do this, they are supposed to be there.

They function, right. Anything made on land is not supposed to be there. It's pollution it's impacts in ways where it doesn't gel with what is actually. Supposed to be functioning there. So I think the fact that this massive structure is being placed in a place where these cops die and you know, all this flora have grown because they're supposed to be there like that is, I don't know.

I just had a little having that juxtaposition. Is 

Laiken: [00:38:34] wild. I mean, it requires some humility, right? To think in those kinds of frames, uh, to realize that the struggle that I've dedicated my entire life for the last three years to it, it's just, it's just a blip. And yeah, I think I do think more and more people are realizing that.

We gotta get with it and live a little more harmoniously with each other and our surroundings. Otherwise we're not going to have much longer, uh, to, to play with this little experiment called society. Yeah. And I think that humility is really important. Yeah. I think 

Abbie: [00:39:12] if we're talking about safety, then there's no point in talking about safety today.

If there's no safety tomorrow and. Our safety tomorrow is our ability to exist on this planet. And we can only do that if we are living harmoniously with the land and we are taking care of the land as it's taking care of us and allowed us to. Live the fact that we are building something for the purpose of safety, that literally goes against the idea of our longevity.

Laiken: [00:39:49] Wild. It's a very app snapshot of where we're at right now. 

Abbie: [00:39:56] Well, I'm not though. I mean, I'm encouraged. I think it's important. I'm, I'm excited for people to hear this. I'm excited for people to learn more about it, to challenge the frameworks around it. I hope that we can have another conversation in the near future talking about its destruction.

Laiken: [00:40:21] Yeah, we've got a lot of big, beautiful ideas, uh, for, for that, including how to repurpose all of that trash, lots of art and our future. 

Abbie: [00:40:31] Same for that. Thank you so much for participating in my critical conversation with Blake and Jordahl. I really appreciated the discussion on false symbols of safety. I thought Laken made a great point.

About the fact that we're constructing this wall in an attempt to keep quote unquote Americans safe, and yet we're enacting violence and harm on American communities and land through the construction. But this lens into a greater conversation on. Who is considered quote unquote American, and by whom linked in the episode, description are some campaigns you can donate to along with Lincoln's information to stay on top of the topic.

Next episode, I'll be speaking with Gregory Coachman, a Philadelphia based social entrepreneur and creator of the lifestyle brand urban recreation. We'll be speaking about how to empower the community from within and how do we engage in difficult conversations with those who hold opposing views, particularly when it comes to.

Racism and privilege or white power in America. I hope that you'll tune in, expect new episodes every other Monday. And don't forget to subscribe. And if you're enjoying this podcast, please rate and leave a review. I really look forward to reading your feedback. I am Abby Henson, and this was critical conversation.