Thinking Beyond the Binary of "Violent" and "Nonviolent" Offenders with Michael Fischer

This week's critical conversation features Michael Fischer, a writer, activist, and advocate. Michael was incarcerated for 2 years in upstate New York and in this conversation, we speak about how social connections significantly impacted his opportunities upon re-entry, how his whiteness and the location of his arrest impacted his experiences with the criminal justice system,  how to hold individuals accountable and increase public safety without relying on prisons, and how the binary constructs of "violent" and "nonviolent" offenders are detrimental to the pursuit of equity and justice.

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Transcript

Abbie Henson: [00:00:02] Welcome to critical conversations. My name is Abbie Henson and I'll be the one conversing with our guests. And I also serve as an assistant professor in the school of criminology and criminal justice at Arizona state university. After the killing of George Floyd, my social media blew up.

I kept seeing posts and reposts as stories, all about criminal and social justice issues. However, much of what I was seeing were just. Flat words that lacked voice and depth and nuance. And so I wanted to create a space where those words could come alive. I wanted to engage in dialogues with people who had actually been impacted by the criminal justice system, whether through their own experience research or both, I felt this was the moment to think critically to examine the complexities of our system in place today.

And to figure out how to move forward in a way that allows for equity and true justice. So I started hosting live webinars, both in an attempt to have it, the audience be active participants either by raising their hand and joining the conversation, or by contributing a question, the chatbox, and to also build a sentence of community and togetherness in a time when we were.

So isolated through quarantine, but because of zoom fatigue, and with people starting to slowly move their lives beyond the home, as places open up, I wanted to figure out a way to keep these conversation going away from the screen. So I started this podcast. In order to reach a broader audience and keep these issues in your ear as you move throughout your day.

And while it can be really overwhelming to think about how to change a massive system, that seems so ingrained in the fabric of our society by participating in these conversations. And yes, you just listening to this podcast is participating. Is where we see true change beginning. Hey everyone. Thank you so much for joining me in this critical conversation with Michael Fisher, a writer, activist, and advocate.

Michael was incarcerated for two years in upstate New York. And in this conversation, we speak about how social connections significantly impacted Michael's opportunities upon re-entry, how his whiteness and the location of his arrest impacted each step of his involvement in the criminal justice system and how it's possible to hold individuals accountable and increase public safety without relying on prisons.

I hope that you enjoy this episode, feeling engaged and please as always continue the conversation once the episode is up. 

Micheal Fisher: [00:02:55] So my name is Michael Fisher. I'm a writer, educator storyteller. I'm originally from Los Angeles. I live in Chicago now. I was incarcerated in New York from 2013 to 2015, uh, in state prison.

And when I came out, uh, was kind of. Looking for a way to put my life back together. I hadn't really been a writer prior to this, to, to being locked up through a very strange series of events in which I got really lucky. I got enrolled in an MFA program despite the fact that I at the time had not graduated college and, uh, was able to.

Do that program managed to finish my bachelor's degree while I was in that program because it was low residency. So I could kind of do a lot of things at once and then got a second master's degree in MBA degree. I've had to be very, very. Intent on the way that, that I'm speaking about myself as I've been kind of negotiating that process.

And in doing that, I've been focusing a lot on how other people are, are doing the same, both people that are system impacted as well. And people who aren't for awhile, I was just kind of clocking it in the back of my brain and just in the last year or two I've I've. Come to a place where I, where I felt like I could speak confidently about it, you know, from, from personal experience.

I mean, I'm not, I'm not an academic, I'm not, I can't cite anything about these things. I just kind of, I just kind of know what it's felt like on, on, on the kind of the path in a kind of creative and creative writing in particular space. 

Abbie Henson: [00:04:18] First of all. I think it's important when thinking about the, the experience or the expertise of academics and their ability to site, it's important to recognize that the people that academics would be citing is you, right?

Like you would be as a system impacted individual, an academic would be interviewing you. They would be drawing quotes from you. So you are really the expert that then gives fuel to fire up the academic to then be portrayed as the expert. Right. So it really comes down to you. So I, I think your expertise is just as much or more than an academics.

I do want to unpack though. Because I think it would be important for our listeners to understand. I want to know what was that series of luck that got you to the 

Micheal Fisher: [00:05:15] MFA? Oh, well, so I, I was working, you know, when you, when you first come out of prison, especially while you're on parole, you're just kind of. I always pictured myself like a, like a frog hopping on Lily pads and, and you, you stay on a Lily pad until it starts to sink.

And then, and then hopefully something else has materialized for you to jump to. And so you'd get these like really small breaks and somebody would like, you know, do you a favor or take pity on you or whatever. And you'd kind of land there for a minute and then they get tired of you or that thing would dissolve and then you'd get, have the jump.

And so at one point while I was on parole, like a family friend needed a. A little bit of help at her business. And then I was kind of helping her, like off the books getting paid hourly. And I was like, oh my God, this is great. You know, if I can just hang on to this for a little while, like maybe, you know, maybe I'll be all right.

And, and through that job, we were, um, spotted that, that business was sponsoring a big kind of film event. And one of the people that showed up at that event was a writer who happened to be a writer in residence at this particular, my fate program. And I got talking to him, I was there to, you know, move around shares and check people in and, and, um, But me and him kind of took a second aside and I was talking about how I wanted to write and how I kept this journal when I was locked up.

And he said, oh, you should come. You should come. And, you know, do this program, um, that I'm involved with. And I said, well, I can't, I don't, I can't go to graduate school. I never finished. College. And he said, well, you know, it's like, well, let me, let me, let's talk about it. And so he put me in touch with the program director and he said, well, send me some of your writing.

And I was like, okay, well now this is over because I didn't have any writing. I never, like I had a, I had a journal, but it was like literally bullet points. So it wasn't even really complete sentences. So I sent him like, I don't know, like three pages of the journal. And I was like, well, I'm never going to hear from this guy again.

And, uh, and he wrote back a couple of days later and he was like, this is, there's some root, there's some real potential here. Like, you should, let me, let me go, let me go to bat with the administrators about this. And then, you know, if, if I get the green light, you should put in an application, I think we can make this work.

And he did. And I did. And yeah, that really saved everything because until, until then I was just gonna, I was content to just kind of. Yeah, keep hopping to whatever I could get my hands on for as long as I could get my hands on it. And that really put me on the path to something sustainable where I didn't feel like people were doing me a favor and were like, it actually felt like I was there.

Cause I belonged there. Not because somebody was, you know, felt bad for me. Right. 

Abbie Henson: [00:07:33] I think, you know, it's really interesting how. Whenever we speak about a successful re-entry and thinking about recidivism or rearrest or reincarceration or criminality, it's always an individual level variable. We're always solely focusing on the individual.

We put the responsibility on the individual to be successful when. Every single person I've spoken to that has had success upon their re-entry. It is all about networking. It is all about community. It is all about the people that you come into contact with. And I think we really need to understand like that this individual responsibility narrative is.

Just a complete fallacy also to recognize the importance of social bonds in success and how prison literally removes you from your community. It takes you away from anyone who could perpetuate or create success for you, or at least get you to a place where you could create your own success. So. With that.

I'm curious for you prior to your incarceration, what were your perceptions of those who were system involved? 

Micheal Fisher: [00:08:53] Oh, man. I mean, I think I was, unfortunately, I think I was typical in that I find that most people, myself included, like before you come in contact with the system, you think a couple of things, a, you think that the system pretty much works that most people that are.

Uh, wrongly convicted. Somebody at HBO will make a documentary and they'll figure it out and it'll be fine. You think that this is the biggest thing I learned. You think that the system is relatively uniform? I think the biggest surprise to me when I got arrested was when my lawyer said to me, man, you just got really unlucky.

If you'd been arrested one county over like, I dunno, three and a half miles to the east or west, you know, whatever direction we would have been in, uh, you know, that county, they would have pled this out to probation. It would have been over or they wouldn't have even prosecuted it. Cause they have like.

Actual important things to do, but because I got arrested in this little cow town where they like literally had nothing better to do, and this was the crime of the century to them, they were going to take it to the wall. And I remember being shocked by that being like, well, how could that be? How could, how could a difference of a couple of miles, you know, from one Kennedy to the other, even within the same state, be the difference between I'm going to go to prison versus like nothing, nothing is going to happen.

Like how could it be? So I think that that's something people don't understand is that the level of variants within the system. By county to county, by which you know, which da gets assigned to your, you know, who in the DA's office gets assigned to your case, those kinds of things have a massive impact on the outcome or whether or not it's someone even bothers to, to, to bring a case against you in a way that I completely did not appreciate.

So that's the thing that I remember the most. And I think I, I didn't. I, I kind of lived with all the same, you know, we're talking about like language creating culture, but also just, just the cultural, the kind of visualization that we all have of carceral settings that we get from, you know, everything from orange is the new black to Oz to whatever where, where it was both like real prison is both.

It's both brighter and darker than people think. Cause cause when I, before I went in, I thought there was two groups of people. There was like this kind of stereotype of this horrible irredeemable person. But then there was also the other character you see in the movie who's like got the heart of gold and like kind of truth is like, there aren't really either of those.

Like, I mean, there are good people, but like it's not, I actually had the nerve to think that maybe. This was going to be like sister act. I liked sister act a lot as a kid, the movie. And I thought it's going to be like that. Like, I'm going to go in there and I'm going to shake things up and I'm going to run a class and, and, and, and people are really going to change because of me.

And it was like, it was like, this is me, like imagining going to prison. And I haven't even arrived there yet. I've already turn it into this whole ego thing. That's gonna make me look good. And people are gonna think I'm so smart. And like, anyway, this whole, this whole narrative, um, And, and the truth is that, um, most of the people that I met, a, there wasn't anything for me to be teaching them.

I was 23 at the time. I mean, I had roommates that have been in prison longer than I've been alive and who, uh, you know, incredibly smart, incredibly, incredibly caring people who, um, had been in a, you know, a range of. Careers from mechanical engineering to, you know, chiropractic. And there was a chiropractor in there, you know, there, it was, it was a wider range of people than I gave it credit for.

Uh, before I got there. And even the people who I, who drove me crazy, they, uh, because I had no choice, but to sit with them and, and, and be literally be with them. I came to appreciate that everybody has a story that like these people didn't just pop out. They didn't just wake up one day and go get I'm going to make other people miserable today.

You know, it, it was about the way that all of us kind of pay our trauma forward. You can either transmit it or you can transmute it and whether or not you fall into one camp or the other, um, is, is not whether or not you're on, uh, you, you found yourself to some moral high ground. It's really just kind of the luck of, of, of your brain chemistry.

Like some people, when they get traumatize, they turn inward. Some people turn outwards. So, you know, some people. They are going to metabolize that and start some company that's going to go dump 30 pounds of oil into a river somewhere. And like, and that, and that, and that person is going to be considered an entrepreneur, but like, so we all have our own way.

And I didn't really appreciate that. I thought that there were just people in the world who just were, we were just full of hate from for reasons that were really hard to trace. And it turns out they're actually pretty easy to trace. And, and, and because of that, there's a, there's a level of understanding that everyone deserves that I, before I got there, I wasn't willing to give everybody.

Abbie Henson: [00:13:15] Great insights. I, I think those realizations are something that. Is very difficult to gather, having not been through the system. And that's an unfortunate reality that you would have to literally go to prison in order to humanize those inside because of the culture that we've created, that dehumanizes and demonizes those who are simply housed in a separate location, right?

Like, yes, there are differences in the fact that they were. Caught, you know, like, and, and that's what, something that I think about so often is that when we create groups through language, by labeling certain people, as one thing and other people as another. For many people who are in prison, it's a, what you spoke about where they were caught.

Right? Because one, uh, situation could have landed them in prison and another would have landed them back in the community. And also just that they were caught in general. There are many people who commit many crimes or what we deemed criminal who are just simply not caught. And we don't demonize them in the ways that we do, just because someone is system involved.

At what point then in your transformation, did you specifically see your language changing around criminal justice 

Micheal Fisher: [00:14:45] involvement? Well, I think it was part of a, what I think of as kind of three interlocking cycles that each of which in its own way kind of hurt. Like hurts you in the macro. But you, you do them because they help you right in that moment.

So the first one is when is when it was when you were first arrested. So I've always been fascinated by the idea that if everybody who got arrested just took their case to trial and pleaded not guilty, the system would break in like a day because the system is counting on the fact that whatever it is, upwards of 95% of people take a plea deal.

And that allows them to just kind of create this cattle call where, um, they don't actually have to allow anyone to exercise the rights that we all have the right to, because. You know, the, the, the maximums are so high now that, that, that, uh, everyone's afraid to take their case to trial. And so you take a plea on the individual level, even though, like, I would just love to see the look on these DA's and judges faces.

If everybody could coordinate enough to do that, like just for the short amount of time, it would take to completely break the system. So, but again, but so, so you play it out to save yourself. So then the second replication is, uh, once you're inside, I noticed that. You know, incarcerated people, rev replicate the same kind of toxic conviction hierarchies that people use on the outside.

So before you ever go home, I, you know, I was already very well versed in this rhetoric of, you know, I hear guys say, well, You know, I may have committed murder, but at least I didn't rape anyone. But then the guys who have committed sexual offenses are saying, well, I may have raped someone, but my victim got up and walked away, you know, your victims underground.

So at least I didn't kill someone. So like everyone's got someone that they think is underneath them. And so even within the system, there's this very intricate hierarchy of like, you know, what was your crime? Who is it against? Um, was it a child? Was it w you know, related to some kind of, you know, sexual harm.

And so you learn that. Y Y you're inside. And so when I came out, I, I just kind of wait, which again, depending on where you stand in, the hierarchy helps you, but hurts us all in the big picture. And so then on the outside with everything else, I was negotiating, you know, I was also being taught. Kind of how to talk about myself in a way that would give me access and kind of get me the things that I wanted.

So, you know, I came out saying, and felon and all those things and they didn't really bother me. Cause I didn't know any other way. I'd never heard the phrase formerly incarcerated until a few months after I was out. So I was, and frankly like still today, like those phrases don't really offend me, partly because they still feel true.

Like, because part of the idea behind, oh, you know, Felon and kind of act like those words, uh, provide, uh, or bestow a permanence to a, to a transitory part of your identity. But the thing is it's like, well, yeah, but. If it's true, it's like, yes, transitory in the sense that I'm not in prison anymore, but like, it still feels very real and very current in the sense that, like my name isn't on my lease agreement for the apartments that I'm sitting in right now, because if it was the landlord wouldn't have rented to me.

So it's in my partner's name and my partner, his name is on the mailbox. And every time I order anything to come to the apartment, it's got to have her name on everything when deliver it. If I'm, so if it's so over and it's not, and it's not a permanent status, then why am I hiding in my own apartment? So anyway, so all that to say, like, I, I don't, it doesn't, their language doesn't bother me because it still feels accurate.

But I quickly learned that most folks wanted formerly incarcerated, wanted to speak about it a certain way. And so I kind of, um, I adopted that language, but especially in the writing space, what I noticed is that when I would, when I would try to publish or when I would apply for grants or anything. Even, even these folks behind these, you know, very liberal organizations that run these grants, they run these fellowships on these residencies would always kind of find a subtle way to get me to say more about.

You know why I was in and, and, and I, and I, and then I thought back to the hierarchy that I learned while I was locked up and I thought, oh, I know, I'll just tell him my conviction was non-violent and they'll leave me alone. And so I started doing that. I started in my grant applications and my essays, you know, first, first paragraph, oh, blah, blah, blah.

Non-violent offense. And people love me and people have started leaving me alone and I started, you know, and things got published and I got the residencies and I got the grants and I was like, oh great. This is going great. And then at some point I actually, because of the class, while I was in grad school, I kind of woke up to the fact that every time that I'm doing that, um, I'm kind of, there's an unspoken implication there, which is that, you know, if it's worth mentioning, if not, if mentioning myself as nonviolent as a way to get me access to what I want, then.

Then by then what I must be doing on the other end of that equation is pushing people that do have violent offenses further into a corner. So I'm not, I'm now stigmatizing other people within the same system impacted group again, for my own benefit in the micro. And it's hurting all of us in the MC in the macro, because, you know, as you know, the phrase, all of us or none, like it's not on some level, if I'm.

If I'm helping to stigmatize any segment of, of the system impacted population, it's going to hurt all of us in the long run, whether or not I'm kind of saving myself in this moment or not. And so I realized that. That I had to stop doing that. And that led me to this moment where I, I, I went to publish something.

It was a publication I really wanted, I was going to get paid and I deliberately didn't put anything in about whether, you know, the didn't characterize my offense at all. And the piece wasn't set in prison, there was really no reason to talk about it. I mentioned that I'd just gotten out recently, but that was the only mention of prison in the piece.

And editors came back and they said, oh, you know, we're as part of the check, could you tell us, you know, Just a little more about your offense. And I said, how is that part of the fact check? Like I never said I wasn't, I wasn't w I never said what I did. How could that be? Uh, anyway, I argued with them about it and I wouldn't, I wouldn't give it to them.

And I, and I finally just said, like, I feel like you're just asking this because you want to make sure I have the right kind of crime before you post this piece. And they just started ignoring my emails and just, they just stopped running back to me and they, they never published it. And I was like, oh, wow.

And so then I reached the point where I had to really wonder if I wanted to keep writing, because if I can't. If the only way to, to, to, to publish is to, is to participate in that then like, then, then it becomes a question of yeah. Like whether or not I can really continue to feel good about, about working in the space at all.

If, if, if, if that's what I have to continue doing or to participate. So yeah, it's, it's one of those things that like served me very well. And then kind of bit me at the last minute. And so now I'm in kind of a. A liminal space. We're not really sure what to do, because, because I know that that now that I know that that's wrong, I can't just pretend like I don't know that, but if I don't do it, um, there's only so many spaces I'm gonna be able to get, find my way into.

Abbie Henson: [00:21:20] Right. And I think something important to note too, is that while non-violent can get you in the door in certain outlets, I think violent. Is also something that can get you in other outlets because people love drama. They love true crime. They love hearing the gory details. And I think there's something wrong about the romanticization of either, right?

Like the fact that we would romanticize non-violent for being the good hearted person who just. Got caught up or romanticizing the violent, the unquote violent offender who did all these crimes. And we just so badly want to know the details. And so I think the ways that we portray something that was interesting that you said, and I wish more people viewed it this way, or there was a way to kind of reappropriate the label.

To be a criticism of the system rather than the individual. I think the way you're saying that having the label of felon feels very real because it has continually oppressed you. I think that's important. And, and it's important to acknowledge that, but I think the use of felon is. Less to stigmatize and draw attention to the systems rather than the individual as it does.

So I think I like that acknowledgement that, um, it would be almost. More appropriate to continue to say prisoner, even outside of the confines of prison, right? Because you are still a prisoner to this label. You are still a prisoner to the stigma. And that's not to say that you don't have power or that you are solely victimized in this way, but it is a reality that has to be acknowledged by people who maybe aren't aware of the lingering effects.

And so I think again, how language creates culture, if there was a way to reappropriate that label, so that there's a greater understanding of the long-term effects. That would be really interesting, but I don't see that happening. And I see the way that we use ex-felon or ex-con or any of this dehumanizing language as just a way to categorize certain people as dangerous or threatening.

Micheal Fisher: [00:24:09] Yeah. Well, I, not only that, but I think one of the things that's, that's really, that's particularly frustrating about. The violent non-violent binary. I mean, there's a couple of things. One is obviously that it's, it's completely arbitrary. Like someone made it up, you know, for burglary to be violent, but for, you know, environmental degradation or, you know, any number of kind of large scale institutional, you know, for incarceration itself to not be classified as violence, you know, only in only, only in a country like America would, would we think that treating people.

Who commit violence with violence to treat them that violence is wrong. I mean, you wouldn't use that on a child. You wouldn't use that on anyone, the logic just, you know, it just break down immediately. So yeah. So, so that, that's one thing that's frustrating about it, but the other thing is that, I mean, to your point, what, what bugs me about the term violent in particular is that it's I feel like it's also become a proxy for.

Likely to re-offend. Um, which of course everyone's obsessed with. It's like, well, you know, every, every program metric, every everything is like, well, what's the recidivism rate. And that's frustrating because as you know, all the evidence, we have shows that people that are convicted of so-called violent offense actually have some of the lowest rates of recidivism, including those who commit sexual harm as any group of people.

And so this idea that, because I feel like a lot of times when people say like, oh, violent, like there, yes. As part of it's about the nature of the crime. But I think part of it's about this idea that. That once you've done anything violent that you are yeah. That you're just likely to re-offend that you're just one that you're just one bad day and one bad mood from re-offending in a way that someone who, you know, did something nonviolent, which is to say, you know, passive, which is to say, you know, like whatever people think that, that, that, that implies, um, what would not do.

And, and that's. And so I feel for people that, that are not, um, you know, can't, can't get, uh, Can't get anything at the parole board. Can't get anything started even when they get out, because there's this idea that like, once you've been violent once and in Latin to your point and got caught, God forbid, unlike the rest of us, that, that then now your chance of recidivism is just always like, you know, high until, until the day you 

Abbie Henson: [00:26:12] die.

Right. Right. And I think, you know, it's, it's interesting. I, I love these kinds of conversations because it just challenges everything we know about the system. And like you said, As the first assumption that the system just works. I think it's important to note that we have to kind of unpack what the system is attempting to do, because I think that's kind of one of these things that's just accepted for face value, but not challenged.

And I guess the assumption would be that it. Enhances public safety and that it, it reforms individuals on the inside when really it perpetuates more harm by engaging in oppressive tactics, by disconnecting social bonds by stigmatizing and labeling individuals for a lifetime. And. It really, uh, stratifies in terms of privilege where certain crimes, as you said, like, uh, environmental degradation.

And even like, I was just thinking when we were talking about violence, how it's accepted in certain arenas and then viewed dramatically differently and others like a bar fight where you would maybe get. Assault charge a violent assault charge. If you were simply in a boxing ring and engaged in the same kind of fight driven by maybe the same kind of anger, but it's just in this accepted arena, you're not seen as a violent offender.

And so I think we have to really understand that what is deemed criminal is so contextual. And it matters where it is and who's involved, which is what leads it to be deemed criminal. 

Micheal Fisher: [00:28:16] Well, the thing that scares me most about your point about that is that yeah. I mean, you, you and your boxers say that like, and they say it kind of as a joke, but you know, it's kind of true with, they'll say like, well, was the only place I can beat people up.

And, uh, and it was legal, but what scares me is that for the, for the folks that don't have the body to be boxers, a lot of them become cops. A lot of them, a lot of them, you know, do. Kind of go the other way and they go into some form of, you know, corrections or kind of institutional, you know, some of, one of these kinds of houses of institutional violence to, to, to, to, to work that out.

And then we wonder, you know, why we're having all these problems with policing and things like that. And so I think people are applauded for that. It's like, oh good. You had an anchor problem. And like, you felt like you wanted to hurt somebody and, and you became a cop. You became a border patrol agent.

Good. Like good. That's a good. Outlet for that stream of your, uh, you know, your issues. And it's like, no, it's not like that. That's, you know, but it just goes to show how much esteem those institutions, you know, have at least up until this moment. Now it's finally fading have had that that's considered like a reasonable way to work out, like some, some issues that are way upstream of like that doesn't, that doesn't solve your problem with, with kind of power and kind of violence and aggression too.

To, to put a badge on, um, it just, it just makes you more likely to be able to hurt more people without consequence. So it is fascinating because no one ever talks about like, yeah, going upstream of that and, and, and, and wanting to nip that in the bud and have people ask more questions about why they need that, like, why they wanna wear a gun, why they want to control other people.

They're just like, oh, good. Well, if you want that, just, you know, don't do it in the street, you know, go to go to the police academy. It's like, how, how is that? Uh, How was that going to solve that? 

Abbie Henson: [00:29:56] If you go one way, you're demonized. If you go another you're applauded. We have to think about why those systems are applauded or demonized and how it affects and benefits those in power.

I would love for you. To speak on how you think in terms of language, in terms of perceptions. Because I think anytime we talk about crime or criminal justice, we have to acknowledge race. Um, and so as a white man, I would love for you to speak on how you think your race has affected. Your position, whether you think it affected your arrest, whether you think it affected your conviction, whether you think it convict, uh, it affected your time inside, how it's been in the re-entry process.

I would love to hear how you view your race as part of that 

narrative. 

Micheal Fisher: [00:30:55] I mean, it's been, I mean, every step of the way, you know, it's served me including when I was inside. So yeah, I mean, from the top, like, Would have served a longer sentence. They probably would have thrown more charge, you know, like some of my initial charges eventually, like a couple of them got dropped kind of pre-trial I'm sure.

I'm sure the full basket would have stuck upfront if I wasn't white. Yeah. I would've. I would, I'd probably, I'd probably still be inside. I would've served a longer sentence, you know, at every step, like it, it would have been, it would have been worse. Um, and then when you're inside, like there's still, you know, it's it's prison is at least as right.

Especially depending on the prison you're in, you know, some. You know, New York being the context I'm familiar with, like some of the prisons, especially in your New York city, they have, um, you know, they have more black CEOs, but when you go out west or like Buffalo and Rochester and like the. The corrections cord goes a hundred, it goes 99% white.

Uh, and, and, and because they know that most inmates are coming from New York city and they know that they've got you really far from your family really far from any lawyers, any kind of watchful eyes. It's just different. The one example I remember specifically was that, um, a lower bunk came up and in the, in the kind of airplane hanger style dorm that I was in the reception dorm that I was in and me and.

You know, this young black guy had come in at the, at the I'd come into the storm at the same time. And so seniority would say it was basically a tie. Well, the seal on duty that day was white. So he gave it to me because. If he's got a choice between two, you know, in his mind, uh, equal quantities, we're both just inmates to him.

He's, he's gonna, he's going to give the, the preface to the white guy. So I got a lower bunk and then as it just happened because of bad luck, normally this wasn't the case, but it just so happened that no one, no one rotated out of that dorm for another, like a couple of months, I think. And so better, the guy was stuck on a top bunk for however long, which, you know, in the middle of the summer, like that kind of thing is a big deal.

Uh, you know, when that's all you've got. So like little things like that, what happened even inside, because, because the CEO's would, uh, what they could in small ways, if you were white or even just, they would also do things like, uh, if I ever didn't show up on time to work. When I, when I had to have a job at the facility, I'd get in trouble, but there's a guy I worked with who was black and who they never, they would never call down and ask where he was.

And, and, and one day I really needed the guy's help. And so I said, you know, how come, why, why do you guys never call? And they said, well, We expected of guys like him, you know, you know, better. Um, and so there was this weird thing where white guys in the prison were held to like a higher standard because, because we were white, we were supposed to like, Yeah, we were supposed to know better.

Like we were supposed to be a better model of our race. Like there, there was all these ridiculous kind of racial politics, some of which absolutely worked, worked for me as a white person and some of which weirdly actually worked against me because they were like, it was like this, it was like a you're making us look bad type of thing.

And then coming out. Yeah. I mean, you know, we know stuff like this goes back to what you were saying before about like, And this and this tragedy of the commons that I keep returning to about, you know, something, you know, wanting to hold onto what you have in the microbial, you know, you're hurting the larger cause, you know, we know statistically that it's easier for a white person like me to, to get a job with a criminal record than a black man without a criminal record.

And so, so me out there as, you know, job hunting for me to know that it's like, do I want that, that discrepancy of disappear? Yes, absolutely. But like, do I clock that if it does. I'm things are going to get a little bit harder for me. Yeah. Like, absolutely. I clocked that because it'd be naive to pretend like I don't clock that.

Like, it doesn't make me a more virtuous to pretend like that's not true. And like, I don't know that, um, you know, but, but, but I do still think it's on me and everyone else into summer position to still point that out. And, and, and yes, sure. Complain about a harder one for you to get a job as a white man with a record, but, but also point out.

That isn't it crazy if this is how much trouble I'm having, it's even harder for someone with no criminal record whatsoever, just because of their race to get a job. And so if I, I mean, I had to, I had to, I had to earn two master's degrees to get an entry-level job and in which I'm still working, that I am like that.

I thank my lucky stars for every day, even though I am so vastly overqualified for this position. It's ridiculous. And so for me to be feeling that way in my context as a white man, I can't even imagine someone who, you know, Has never committed a crime has to, to, to be, you know, however many steps back from my odds of getting a planning a full-time job.

So, yeah. So it very much manifests itself in that sense. I also think it just helps because I'm allowed to, to the degree I've been allowed to not say more about why I was in, I think that's largely a function of my whiteness. I think the assumption, if you're white, is that like, you know, whatever, you were probably like a weed dealer or.

You know, and unless you send obvious signs that, uh, because in prison, you know, assumption is if you're, Y you're you're the, in for drugs or, or a child molestation. But I think people also think that they can, you know, pick a child molester out of a crowd. And so all you really have to do is not like if we're being Frank about it, all you really have to do as a white man coming out of prison is not act and look like a child molester.

And people will probably just assume that you're, that you dealt some weed on the beach and, uh, You know, and, and whatever. And so people don't really say a whole lot. I don't think I'd be getting that kind of pass. Uh, if I, you know, if I wasn't white, I think it'd be like, well, yeah, but can you say a little more, are you sure it wasn't, you know, he sure didn't have a gun or all those types of things.

And that also has to do with my speech. I mean, that has to do with, I know. How to play the game. I know how to show up and, you know, speak in a certain way that I know is going to put people at ease and not swear too much or speak too loudly or use too much slang or an INO and wear a collared shirt.

Like I know how to kind of deliver on. Uh, you know, as a white person, I know how to deliver on what other white people want to see me do and say, look like, and I think that's been a huge advantage as well. So yeah, it's been, it's been, it's been, it's been a privilege at every step of the way. Yeah. I 

Abbie Henson: [00:36:50] appreciate you talking about that and acknowledging it.

I think what you're citing of it being more difficult for a black man without a criminal record, as opposed to a white man with a criminal record, that is also just. Perpetuated, but like that is a cultural construct constructed through the criminal justice system and the history of the criminal justice system.

And the fact that the criminal justice system has served as a way to categorize who is threatening and who is not. And it's not just the system because we know that half of the people in prison are white. But yet we still speak about criminality in terms of blackness. We speak about threat in terms of blackness.

And that is on the backs of not just criminal justice agents, but journalists academics, individuals who are culture creators, who are. Creating language who are creating images and visual landscapes of what a criminal is. And so I think it's really important to note that, and that's something that we rarely talk about.

The fact that over 50% of those in prison are white. And yet we have a very distinct visualization of what a criminal is and something that also is maybe not spoken about too, because we're drawing often academics, especially high ranking academic institutions that are pumping out. A lot of publications are often in cities.

Uh, like New York and Chicago and LA. And so the prison populations that they're drawing from are predominantly from urban neighborhoods that happened to be black because of ghettoisation and white flight. All of these layered systems, right? So again, it's just understanding how our social narratives are constructed and really deconstructing them in a way that we can understand the context so that we're not just taking everything for face value in terms of moving forward.

Because you had all these kind of eye-opening experiences and you had all these assumptions debunked because the majority of us are lucky enough or just in the position to not go to prison. How do you see. On a broader scale change occurring in a way that allows us to humanize those who are system impacted and to not feel a certain level of threat through a criminal 

Micheal Fisher: [00:39:51] record.

I mean, th th to me the, you know, it's, it's, it's so deep and it's so multifaceted that it's hard to know what would actually work, but I will say that one of the things that I see, um, where I do see a gap where I feel like, well, we could at least try it is this thing where, you know, talking about kind of the language and the rhetoric of this process, where.

Both people who, who have our system impacted and people who aren't are always kind of are always using this very sharp microscope on, on anyone coming out of prison about whether or not they're good enough. It's like, okay. Yes, you're out. Yes. You've served your time. But like how much are you volunteering?

How many, how many, how many groups for at-risk children have you started? Um, you know, how much of your, the job you can't even, you don't even have yet, are you donating to victims rights groups and. And again, my thing is like I'm done kind of asking people to validate me as like good enough to be allowed back into, you know, the, the, yeah.

The kind of body politics. I'm, I've actually, I'm actually kind of turning a bit of an aggressive Paige and, and, and, and kind of coming more from the angle of like, instead of us, instead of the conversation being only about like how I'm almost as good as you, what about the conversation about how you're exactly as bad as me.

Um, and, and of course, like, that's, that's such a verboten thing because like, if you're, if your system impacted, it's like, well, no, you can't, you can't point the finger in the other direction. Like you just have to, you know, you just have to be humble and you just have to like, you know, tell, you know, and just kind of keep your tail between your legs.

And so I get why, like, that's not the stance many people take because it's also not a stance. Many people want to be confronted with, but. I don't really know how else to get people to start turning the lens inward a little bit and stopped because of the more time you're spending legislate like free legislating, whether or not like I'm good enough to be, you know, uh, like a good enough human being to rent me an apartment that that's the opportunity cost of, you know, for you to be thinking about your complicity in the system, the things that, that, that you could be doing.

So I think, I think we're losing a ton of time with retention politics and, and, and I think that's. But that that's, that's become a huge time suck that like would create a vacuum that something could fill. Maybe if it's not nothing I'm talking about, it could be something more productive. But I, but I do know that this thing of like every day in the life of every formerly incarcerated person being like, you're just supposed to be a walking resume for yourself, uh, for anyone to examine.

I know that like, that's not getting us anywhere, so I I'm, I'm trying to moving a little bit and I think, I think what ha what's happened. You know, over the last, you know, starting last summer, kind of with, with, you know, the murder of George Floyd and the movement for black lives. I think, I think there's a blueprint there in terms of where that movement is really asking people to stop micromanaging every single black person on earth.

Start thinking about their own individual complicity. And I, and I think that speaking to people, it's like all of a sudden, and again, some of it's performative, like all of a sudden, you know, how to be an anti-racist is sold out from every bookstore in the country. Great. I guess that means we've arrived, but at least like, there is some level in which people are understanding like, oh yeah, you know what?

Maybe my time is better served, looking at what I'm doing than constantly just staring at this thing and wanting to, you know, talk about other people and where they're at. So I think there's like a, as I said, a blueprint there for. The carceral state writ large to kind of, instead of this, everyone continued to stare at it.

It's like, why don't you stare in where it a little bit. And like, let's see if maybe that gets us somewhere. 

Abbie Henson: [00:43:12] Yeah. I think actually something that you just said, that's also a blueprint is thinking about what makes us feel safe and thinking about all the things that you just mentioned, like speaking at, at, for at-risk youth compensating victims services, doing all of these.

Redemptive acts. That's what makes us. You know, that's what makes outsiders feel more safe with someone. That's how we view you as legitimate and as someone who's valid prison. On the other hand, this thing that is supposed to enhance public safety makes us feel more fear. Right. Like if you've experienced prison, we feel more fearful of you.

But if you've done these redemptive acts, we feel more safer around you. So then again, what is the point of prison? If not, to just perpetuate fear. Right. Like if we know that there are these things that can be redemptive, that can actually hold people accountable and address the true harms that they've caused to themselves and others, if that was in fact, the case, then why aren't we going that route in terms of seeking justice, rather than doing this.

Act of putting people away in a place that's really, at this point only to manage certain populations, to incapacitate certain populations, knowing that. That creates more fear on the outside. It's not that, oh, you've done five years in prison. Oh, I feel good because you've done that time. No, no one feels that.

And the more time you spend inside, the more fearful we are, even though the idea would be that the more time you spend inside, the safer you are when you 

Micheal Fisher: [00:45:08] come out. Yeah. No, exactly. Yeah. I mean, that, that, that's what I've I always think about that. Yeah, for sure. It's like, if it, yeah, if it worked then on day, one of you hitting the outside, nobody would have any problem with you.

They'd rent you an apartment. They'll give you a job if it really works. So, so we're, we're, we're kind of telling on ourselves when we create all these, you know, post-incarceration, uh, safeguards to kind of protect, you know, quote unquote the rest of us from people that have been locked up because, um, yeah, obviously if we actually.

You know, believe our own BS about how well the system works, then we wouldn't need any of that. Cause it'd be like, oh great. A person who just left prison sounds like a rehabilitated person to me. Let's, you know, let's, let's get them back in the fold, but, but of course, you know, that's never, um, never how it 

Abbie Henson: [00:45:45] actually looks.

Well, I think. A lot for people to digest here. I think you brought up some really amazing points. I love how you have been able to speak on these things. I think you have a really well articulated insight that that's going to really challenge people to. Expand their perspective. So I really appreciate you taking the time, not only to speak with me, but also taking the time to really reflect on these things.

Um, it's clear to me that you have done the work that you say that you've done in terms of just thinking about how to speak on these things in a way that you feel confident. 

Micheal Fisher: [00:46:32] Thank you. Well, thanks for, thanks for having me. I do. If I could, I want to say one last thing, you know, I've never really admitted this to anybody, but it scares me to think about my mindset when I first got out, because I have never been anywhere near as close to committing.

A range of horrendously, violent acts as I was in kind of that initial period after right after I got out, I literally used to get myself through the day by fantasizing about hurting people. You know, I had, you know, it was like a hit list. Like people, I was going to hurt people. I was going to torture people.

I wanted to see suffer because of the situation I thought that they had put me in. And I don't know if, I don't know if like, if things had kept going that way and if I hadn't gotten any breaks, I like to think I wouldn't have done it. I like to think that something about that fantasy life would have, uh, kept a lid on it, but it's, it's scary even for me as the person who was doing it to look back and think about that and to remember that mindset and, and to think that, yeah, who knows, like if, if I hadn't.

As we said in the beginning, just gotten super lucky and gotten some breaks and, and been white and all these things. If all those things hadn't been working in my favor, I don't know if I wouldn't still be on some couch somewhere thinking about how badly I want to hurt particular people. How about the, I want to see a particular people suffer the way I suffered and that's just, um, and that's hard to live with still.

And so I guess I just want to say like, yeah, I mean that not only does it, does it not work, but it's. It's this thing that, that people think is giving them safe. It's putting them in a lot of danger. And I, and I, and I know from experience, because one of the people you were in danger from, from that system was me.

Like I was so close. I was so willing. Um, to do really terrible things, because I didn't know what else to do, except act out how frustrated and powerless I felt. And I can promise you that, that part of my story, unlike a lot of other parts is not a unique experience. I just wanted to say that, but anyway, thank you so much for having me.

It was really great to be with you. 

Abbie Henson: [00:48:32] I think that that is the perfect example of the cycle of violence. Right. Like the eye for eye mentality, just perpetuates harm. Like if the system is harming individuals, which then leads individuals to harm others, which then leaves the system to harm the individual, it's just an endless cycle.

And so. Again, like thinking about the redemptive acts, thinking about what makes us feel safe. It's not harming individuals. It's not perpetuating violence that makes us feel safe. It's these positive acts that make us feel safe. The fear. Of your story just now being that then people are like, oh my God, everyone coming out of prison is like, thinking about torturing people.

I don't, I don't think that's the case, but I do think that it definitely highlights the pain that prison imposes and the powerlessness that it imposes in a way that. Power is synonymous in that regard to violence, right? Like you are powerless because this system is imposing violence upon you. And so then you internalize power as violence and you're seeking that.

So it all makes sense. And of course, even if we have, I mean, I'm sure many people who haven't gone to prison fantasize about. I mean, I definitely have like shower. Uh, arguments all the time with people in my head. But I think, again, it's, it's, it's a very human thing to do to internalize that which has been done to us and then model it in some way.

And so if we want. To enhance public safety. We have to do the things that make us feel safe, and we know that prison is not one of them. So I appreciate you sharing that. And I think it's probably scary to share that because you're in some way, feeding a stereotype. Right. Like the fear would be that, oh, this guy has gone to prison.

He's thinking these things, he's a bad person. No, he's just human. And he has been harmed by the system. And so we have to understand that and contextualize it and recognize where violence stems from like, right. Like it's the cliche saying, but hurt people, hurt people. That's fact, we know that research shows that.

So if we don't want. People to be hurt, we have to stop hurting others. Thank you so much for sharing for speaking with me, um, for sharing your story, I really would love to continue this conversation and see how we can collaborate in some way down the road. But yeah. Thank you. 

Micheal Fisher: [00:51:35] Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you.

It was, I'm glad I saw that email. I'm glad we were able to connect. So, um, yeah. Thanks Abbie.

Abbie Henson: [00:51:44] Thank you so much for participating in my critical conversation with Michael Fisher. Something that Michael touched on and that's been raised by many of the other previously incarcerated guests on this show is the importance of social connection, especially in the re-entry process. Michael explained how through networking.

He was able to enter an MFA program. We often place the responsibility of success on the individual when data and anecdotes demonstrate how success purpose and meaning is found through community. Yet the criminal justice system, very intentionally disrupts community ties entering prison. Severs social bonds to the community.

And when released, according to law, those with felonies on their record are prohibited from interacting, which is detrimental to the incredibly deep and special connections that most foreman side with other incarcerated folks, social bonds are found to deter engagement in what is deemed criminal and.

So, if we truly want to enhance public safety, we have to create systems that value and support relationships. I also thought it was valuable to hear about how variable rather than uniform the criminal justice system is. How arrest charge, sentence, length and treatment inside and in the community is dependent upon place res and a variety of other factors.

I also appreciate the discussion on violent versus nonviolent offenders. Michael was right. In that often we equate violent offenders with recidivism when this is not the case. According to a study by the bureau of justice statistics looking at 400,000 people released across 30 states in 2005, those convicted of violent offenses were less likely to be rearrested within three years.

And then those convicted of nonviolent offenses and those who were rearrested were more likely to be rearrested for non-violent offenses, then violent offenses. This includes those who were originally arrested for homicide. Another study by safe and just Michigan examined the reincarceration rates of people convicted of homicide and sex offenses.

Paroled. From 2007 to 2010 and found that more than 99% did not return to prison within three years with a new sentence for a similar offense. Another study looking at people released from prison in New York and California, between 1991 and 2014 found that only 1% of those convicted of murder or non negligent manslaughter.

Were reincarcerated for a similar offense within three years. So we have to think about why we have these stereotypes of violent offenders being more dangerous on the outside. I also appreciate Michael's statement that the safeguards that we place on the outside in terms of limiting opportunities for housing and employment, for those with criminal records exposes our knowledge that prisons do not rehabilitate or make us safer, which was highlighted by Michael's last.

Statement on the anger he harbored from his period of incarceration. Next episode, I'll be speaking with Camilla Newton, a writer who brings a unique perspective to the conversation on criminal justice transformation. As it's informed by her experience as a victim of sexual assault, a co-parent. To an incarcerated individual and a system involved individual herself who was lucky enough to participate in an alternative to incarceration program that allowed her to maintain custody of her child obtain employment, secure housing, and expunge her record.

This episode highlights the gendered experience of the criminal justice system that we have yet to explore on this show. So I hope you'll take. Tune in expect new episodes every other Monday. And don't forget to subscribe rate, and please leave a review. I want to read your feedback. I'm Abbie Henson, and this was critical conversations.