Women's Unique Paths to Prison with Kamilah Newton

This episode features Kamilah Newton, a writer, advocate, and previous participant of Justice Home, an alternative to incarceration program hosted by the Women’s Prison Association. This episode exposes the unique gendered experience of the criminal justice system, highlighting the cycle of victimization and the pervasiveness of trauma that the majority of justice-involved women experience. Kamilah speaks about what it is like being a mother to Black children in America today, what it is like being a co-parent to an incarcerated father, what her personal experience was like with the criminal justice system, and how to think critically about what safety means and what victims need from first responders.

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Transcript

Abbie Henson: [00:00:02] Welcome to critical conversations. My name is Abbie Henson and I'll be the one conversing with our guests. And I also serve as an assistant professor in the school of criminology and criminal justice at Arizona state university. After the killing of George Floyd, my social media blew up.

I kept seeing posts and reposts as stories, all about criminal and social justice issues. However, much of what I was seeing were just. Flat words that lacked voice and depth and nuance. And so I wanted to create a space where those words could come alive. I wanted to engage in dialogues with people who had actually been impacted by the criminal justice system, whether through their own experience research or both, I felt this was the moment to think critically to examine the complexities of our system in place today.

And to figure out how to move forward in a way that allows for equity and true justice. So I started hosting live webinars, both in an attempt to have the audience be active participants either by raising their hand and joining the conversation, or by contributing a question to the chat box and to also build a sense of community and togetherness in a time when we were.

So isolated through quarantine, but because of zoom fatigue, and with people starting to slowly move their lives beyond the home has places open up. I wanted to figure out a way to keep these conversations going away from the screen. So I started this podcast in order to reach a broader audience and keep these issues in your ear.

As you move throughout your day. And while it can be really overwhelming to think about how to change a massive system, that seems so ingrained in the fabric of our society by participating in these conversations. And yes, you just listening to this podcast is participating. That is where we see true change beginning.

Hey everyone. Thank you so much for joining me in this critical conversation with Camilla Newton. Camilla is a writer advocate and a previous participant of justice home and alternative to incarceration program hosted by the women's prison association. This episode exposes the unique gendered experience of the criminal justice system highlighting the cycle of victimization and the pervasiveness of trauma that the majority of justice involved women experience in this episode, Camilla speaks about what it's like to be a mother to black children in America today.

What it's like being a co-parent to an incarcerated father. What her personal experience was like with the criminal justice system and how to think critically about what safety means and what victims need from first responders. I hope that you enjoy this episode, feel engaged and please as always continue the conversation.

Once the episode is up. My name 

Kamilah Newton: [00:03:10] is Camila Noonan and I'm born and raised in the Bronx. You know, VX stand up, got to do a little, but, um, I guess really I'm here to talk about. The nuance of women's involvement with the criminal justice system and, or the injustice system as I tend to call 

Abbie Henson: [00:03:33] it. Yeah. So you, at what age were you first becoming aware of the criminal judge?

Oh, 

Kamilah Newton: [00:03:41] man. I think my most earliest interactions with it was. Like high school, high school, we had metal detectors. And so there was always a police presence. And I guess that's around the same age where I started to look old enough for like stop and frisks. So definitely around like my teenage years where I became just like acutely aware of.

What their presence is in the community, especially as it pertains and relates to people that look like me. 

Abbie Henson: [00:04:17] When was your first direct interaction with the police? I 

Kamilah Newton: [00:04:21] remember very distinctly walking along Westchester avenue by where I grew up in my son's father. This was before we had a child. Like we knew each other since elementary school, but I saw him in the neighborhood and I had a heavy bag with me.

Cause I used to travel back and forth between Jersey and the Bronx, where my mom lived in Jersey. My grandmother lived in the Bronx. And I was still going to high school in the Bronx. I was consistently back and forth. He had offered to help me with my bags because I was carrying some pretty heavy bags to go back home, walking to the train station and I'll never forget.

Um, it was like a Patty wagon. I don't know if that's what y'all call them, but like, Of the big little, you know, in my PD truck driving down the block and it was going in the opposite direction and he was walking alongside me, kind of like walking over his bike, not really actively writing it, but like, you know, walking over it, dragging it along with him and I at the same pace.

Um, but my things were on his handlebars and I remember he looked at me, he said, they're going to swing back around. Like what? And they did, they small back around to the other side of the street immediately. And they started searching my things. And I remember asking them like, what are y'all doing? Like, what did we do?

We just walk in like what? And I think somebody told me something along the lines of like, he knows why we stopped and he wasn't saying anything. So I kind of didn't say anything. And I was like, that's my stuff. You know, like, but they did not care, nonetheless. And. Uh, essentially he explained to me that it was because they were considering it, him riding his bike on the sidewalk and he wasn't allowed to do that.

And, but now living in this part of the Bronx a little, well, a lot will semi a lot further from that side of the Bronx, um, where people don't look like me in these neighborhoods. I see white kids ride their bikes on the sidewalk every day. So, and we are literally damn near attached to the police precinct.

There was definitely a stark difference there that I really didn't realize until I became around like 14 

Abbie Henson: [00:06:31] or so. So how old were you when you had your first child? I just 

Kamilah Newton: [00:06:35] turned 18 in may and then I gave birth in December. At what 

Abbie Henson: [00:06:39] point did your son, is this the son whose father was incarcerated? Right.

Okay. So at what point did he become incarcerated? 

Kamilah Newton: [00:06:50] That was around, um, Jason was like 32 years old or going on. 

Abbie Henson: [00:06:57] And what was the 

Kamilah Newton: [00:06:58] sentence? How long? Yeah. Like a year in limbo, not knowing what it was going to be. And I think they ultimately decided on like three years in and three years out life. I mean, it's crazy.

Um, how like systemic racism and, um, police brutality and all these things find a way to intersect the lives of black people. Jason's father, right. Had a really troubled. Past, growing up a lot of police interactions and consistently in and out of court and, you know, growing up. Cause we, like I said, we knew each other since elementary school.

So I got to see a lot of this when we were dating from basically like freshman year high school. So I did get to see most of his run-ins, but his father was killed by two weeks. So everything kind of links back. Uh, and now I'm here, you know, all these gears in generations later, trying to explain to my son why he doesn't have a grandfather and why his father is not an active part in his life.

So it's almost an escapable, you know, how layered that experience is. Um, he is. Kind of like big statured and he's dark skinned and you know, like, not honestly, like neither one of us just walk around with like giddy smiles on our faces all the time. It's how people interpret that as intimidation and as a grown ass man, and he feels like he cannot walk into anywhere and just.

Apply for a job because they're automatically gonna tell him no, like, so yeah, I mean, it's, it's so layered and now I'm, I'm grappling with the fate of that for my own children now. Right. Have a, I have a daughter now also, and I worry how the world is going to judge her as a, a young black girl. You know, they tend to call us fast and blame us for our own abuse and.

The most scrupulous ways. And you know, now my son who is not even eight years old, but wearing a size 10, 12, and close, I'm very, you know, he's not a hefty child. He's just whole, and that scares me. Um, or how people are going to interpret that later. 

Abbie Henson: [00:09:04] How are you? If you haven't already, how are you planning to teach your children about the criminal justice system, how to interact with police, those kinds of things.

I feel a 

Kamilah Newton: [00:09:17] few things about that, unfortunately. Um, I am already having those conversations with Jason and he's seven he's seven because I have to explain to him why he doesn't have any grandfathers. You know, they, they had rallies for. You know, Jason's grandfather, Jason Jr. His grandfather. And, um, you know, we've set up sometimes watching old YouTube clips of these rallies.

People held for him, you know, trying to show him that, like this happens all the time. I remember. Showing him a video of what happened to Tamir rice, because, you know, I tried to explain the story, but he's a very visual learner. He was like, I need to see what you're talking about. And I showed him that video.

I had to make it very clear to him that I know that like you're Uber loving and not judgemental of people, especially by the basis of the color of their skin. But. Your skin goes with you everywhere you go. And people will see that before you open your mouth. That has to, you have to be intentional about what that means.

Um, and a lot of ways, but I think there's ways to keep us on the plantation. So I do my best stuff, trying to. Give him the language and help him to understand what racism looks like now, because it morphs in. Some people are so blinded that they're still looking for water, hoses and dogs being sick on people.

And that's not exactly what's happening anymore. So I try to keep him very. In the note when it comes to those kinds of things, as far as prisons, um, when he was very young, I've had to work hard against the narrative that police are good guys who catch bad guys. That shit is everywhere. Daniel tiger has a song about police.

I don't know if you're familiar with Daniel, like he has a song about beliefs and I hear it. I'm be like, turn that shit off, please. Like my daughter's father goes well, to be fair. It is the land of make-believe I'm like right here. Right. But like, I don't even. Like Jason's school during a pandemic assigned to him a book.

And this was an online reading assignment. And essentially it was about a police officer who, bad things that happened to people in this book because they didn't heed his warnings. And I was like, that is bullshit. Why the fuck are y'all sending you back? Like, don't like, it starts so young. So young, like, so it was hard.

It was hard. And I think it's been hard for him. He has anxiety. He was finally formally diagnosed with ADHD. Um, and I'm pretty sure that he's somewhere on the spectrum and all those things are extremely exacerbated by. The stress that he felt of having an incarcerated parent, he had a stuttering problem that was really, really bad around that time.

And I noticed that, oh, his flare up, when he gets on the phone with his bed, I'm like, because this is stressful to him, even though he's too young to verb this, his body is clear. So I haven't had those conversations and try to explain to him that everybody. Makes decisions based on the tools they had in their toolbox, you can't fault people for having the toolbox that came like half empty.

If that's how they got it from store, you know, like people, people are consistently, um, being punished for circumstances that stem back to their most formative years that they really, I mean, as a child, you don't have any control over your life. Right? I mean, I, I made, I did a speech about this. One's at the makers conference last year, and I always tell people about how differently people treated me based on which piece of paper they saw first.

Um, either my transcript or like my rap sheet. And it was such a stark difference because I think like, people imagine like, okay, if you commit a crime, say you Rob something, okay. Like you're a robber now you don't have a name. You're just you, you're the robber. Like, well, I feel like that's appropriate for some titles, like rapists, which I don't think should ever leave anybody's book.

I find it interesting to know how we. Paints a picture in our minds of what a criminal looks like, how they act and what's their intrinsic value people. Like I said, if people treated me very differently based on which chameleon they do first, or where, where at what point did they meet me and how much they knew about me, they treated me very different.

And I like to challenge people to reevaluate what they think a criminal is and what a criminal looks like. Because I think that. If they knew more about the jail population in this country, which is tremendous, it may knew more about the statistics regarding who's actually sitting in those cells. You would find that a lot of people in, in cells are not that different from you and I, we have a lot of shared experiences and it's always just that one factor or that lucky break.

I mean, There's a lot of, um, I remember seeing a hashtag what was it? Priming wild, white or something. White people just come and clean about all the crimes they did and got away with it. No big deal. And. That says something. Um, and it's something that we should all, like you said, it's about the collective consciousness and that needs to be adapted into all of our collective consciousness, truly understanding at our core that this country treats people very differently based on the factors that we have the least control over.

And the best thing we can do for one another is moving a direction where we stopped doing that. Like, or respectability politics. Stop worrying about stupid shit, like piercings and tattoos. Like what the fuck does that say about somehow? He like, you know, um, even honestly like even grades, just because I'm an, a student doesn't mean like I'm a better person and somebody else doesn't get the aid, you know?

Um, and also you have to take into the factors that might. Influences, you know, say a person who's not getting the aid is also helping take care of their five siblings at home. So they don't have as much time to study as I do. You know? I mean, you never, you literally never know. And so I think that the biggest thing about learning is understanding that you don't.

No everything. And that growth is never ending. There is always something more to learn and find out. And that there's so much power in transparency on both the side of the offender and the, the offended, I guess, you know, and that there's always room for some common ground there so that we can always understand, um, How we got to the places that we get to and what we can do to save the generation behind 

Abbie Henson: [00:16:14] us.

So one of the reasons that we got connected is because you went through a program with the women's prison association. And so that was an alternative to incarceration programs. So at this point, your, you have a two-year-old son whose father is. In jail, awaiting trial, and then ends up in prison. How old are you when you then got arrested?

I remember 

Kamilah Newton: [00:16:46] that one of my court dates, if I'm not mistaken was on my 21st birthday. So right before my 20, my 21st 

Abbie Henson: [00:16:55] birthday. And so you had a, he was three at the time. 

Kamilah Newton: [00:16:58] He was gay. Like, go like this is, it's such a, like one thing about trauma that I don't think people give enough credit is. How muddy information gets in your mind around those times?

Um, I feel like there's so many memory gaps that, uh, between like teenage years and in different times of trauma during my adult. Yeah. Jason, to be like going on three at the time. Um, I think this whole breast thing started in 2015 if I recall properly. So yeah, that will make, that would make sense. Um, pros is gonna say, you know, like, um, I was already dealing with a lot.

I had. Just moved out. Um, and so I was in the shelter, 

Abbie Henson: [00:17:37] moved out 

Kamilah Newton: [00:17:38] of my grandmother's house. Yeah, my grandmother's house in the Bronx. Um, I had just moved out of her house. It was not a safe environment, not a safe enough environment growing up for me. And, um, there was just certain things. I didn't want my son to have the experience.

And so I made that decision to take a leap of faith and. Go to the shelter and just hope that I would come across something that was better than what I already had. And I also, at the same time, I think I got into the shelter around February of 2016. And by. March. I was starting school college, so that was really difficult.

I was going for a nursing degree and it was, it was so many things happening around that time. I think that's when my anxiety was like the worst, but yeah. Then, then dealing with this court case, what was 

Abbie Henson: [00:18:30] the. What was the charge? 

Kamilah Newton: [00:18:33] Oh, um, I had been charged with, oh, what is the term for it? Uh, bringing in contraband, bringing contraband, um, into Rikers.

That was my chart. 

Abbie Henson: [00:18:46] Was that when you were visiting, was that when you were visiting your son's father? 

Kamilah Newton: [00:18:51] Right. Um, to give some sort of context there, I was bringing. A knife. I was bringing weed and I was bringing tobacco and tobacco are typically things to keep the inmates chill. And, um, this dude has a terrible temper.

And so I thought the best thing I could be doing for him at that time was to help him. Uh, God, I don't know, find a way to relieve some of that stress. I know he was ultimately stressed out and as I understand it, the guards enjoyed when they had it as well, because it was less work for them. Like everybody's chilling, like, so where I went, they wanted that way.

And the knife, um, he had expressed some concerns to me about having to go upstate. And being concerned about his safety during this transfer and at the time or rationale was, you know, he might hurt me from time to time, but I know he would never allow anyone else to hurt me in given that I was lacking that protection at home, growing up.

Um, I was willing to trade my freedom to ensure his survival during that transfer. 

Abbie Henson: [00:20:05] I think that is such an incredibly, uh, insightful way of. Relaying that story. I think your self-awareness in connecting those dots and understanding why you did that. Did you know at the time, was that like a conscious awareness of like, this is a reflection of.

My lack of protection from my childhood because of the molestation and the rape and the, um, unsafe environment that I was in. But I want to protect this person. Were you having those thoughts? No, 

Kamilah Newton: [00:20:43] definitely not. Um, I will credit WPA who very quickly got me in touch with a therapist because that's what I asked them for.

Um, It was through my therapy, um, that I was able to. Learn a lot about myself and spend a lot of time dedicated to self-reflection and even going to school and understanding psychology. Like I loved psychology when I was in college and just really being super, like I said, I've always been a critical thinker.

And so being super like. Some people call it overly analytical, but whatever it works for me and taking that time because there's so much power in self-reflection and self-awareness. And so just really taking time to understand why I did the things that I said and. Understanding how the very, the many layers of who I am and what I've experienced have all contributed into my decisions at that time.

And even my decisions now, did you know the 

Abbie Henson: [00:21:44] risk of bringing in the contraband? Like, did you know the risk of, like, as you said previously, you were willing to risk your freedom for ultimately his protection. Did you know that you were risking your freedom? I'll be 

Kamilah Newton: [00:22:00] honest with you. I didn't think I was going to get caught.

Um, I had my son with me at the time. That's how sure I wasn't. I was that I wasn't going to get caught. And if I'm being totally Frank, like I probably wouldn't have got caught it wasn't for phone calls because I think that is what led them on, but it is not hard to get things in or out of Rikers. And that's why people continue to get hurt there on a regular basis.

So that was not like Rikers 

Abbie Henson: [00:22:26] and really anywhere. Yeah, 

Kamilah Newton: [00:22:29] I'm sure. Yeah. I'm sure. Yeah. I mean, I found that things were even less strict once you move upstate. So it was like, 

Abbie Henson: [00:22:37] so did you get caught on the spot and arrested at Rikers? Yeah, so 

Kamilah Newton: [00:22:42] I remember that day. And I remember, I think there probably would be, that's probably the first podcast.

I really thought hard about like that day and how it went. I remember being a little antsy before I left, but being like, you know what, like this is no big deal, but just slipped us to him and we're going to make sure that he makes it out of the jail thing alive. Cause we know we can't trust the guards to do that and we get there and we just make it on the bus.

They started doing in the midst of me going there. Cause I remember how it was beforehand and how it became quickly after, but they started doing this thing where you had to get off the bus and go straight into this one particular building and they would run the dogs fast, everybody. And before you could even get online for your visitation, they did the dog thing.

And I wasn't thinking nothing of it. And they tried, they was like, oh, the dog keeps coming by you. And I'm like, all right. So sitting down waiting and waiting. And I remember being like, listen, like I'm ready to go. Cause y'all got me sitting here for a long time. Like I haven't said nothing to me. Like if y'all not going to let me in the visit and just let me go home.

And they were like, we're not letting you go anywhere. And they like asked me to come into this bathroom that was nearby. It's a public bathroom inside that, that I'm building that prince building and they were. Screaming at me threatened to put their hands inside my vagina. They were like, and my son is standing here looking mortified.

Like he has no idea what are y'all doing. And I thought we were going to see my dad, like, and he would just like scream at me. And I was very nonchalant because, you know, I watched enough law and order to know that this is all part of, like, they want you to cry, you know? And I just, I was like, I don't know what you guys are talking about.

It was like, oh, we heard you on the phone. Even waiting for you to get here all day. And I was like, Hmm, I guess, I don't know what you guys are talking about. Like, let me go home. It's God doing a lot right now, my son this year, not with this and. I remember Jason's dad had started to call me because I know he probably felt something was up.

If I wasn't in already trying to quality, quality, quality. And I tried to pick up and I remember like, this lady smashed my phone for me. She was like, you're not picking that up. And we had moved over to split another building and they just kept on interrogating. It's arrogating. And the only reason that, um, I ended up giving up anything I had was because they had threatened to call ACS and let them take my son away.

They was like, we know that you live with your grandmother, you live, we'll go there and we'll rate her house. And I was like, fuck, like my grandmother has no idea about this kind of stuff. Like do not do that for her. And that's the only reason they was like, yeah, we know you're in school too. So we'll screw that up too.

Yeah. So that was the only reason I gave it up. Um, because I couldn't, I would not allow my son to get taken into any system. And so the trade off was, I'll give you guys what I have, but you have to let my sister come and pick him up. Um, so they had already separated Jason and I, they had him outside this little cage and he had me in this cage locked up or whatever.

And I just remember, like talking to him, talking to him through the bars and trying to like tell him like, you know, DD is going to come get you from here to worry about it. You know? Um, I remember he has to use a restroom and one of them took him to use the restroom and be mortified about what might happen to him in the bathroom.

Cause I wasn't there. And that was the only time it's probably ever been into the bathroom with a stranger, just so many things were going through my mind at that time. But my sister was able to come and get him. Um, and I think I sat in SL and then they move to another cell and that whole process, they, I wasn't done until like nine o'clock.

When he finally took me to the actual bookings in the Bronx. And then from there, I was there until the next day. 

Abbie Henson: [00:26:37] Um, I've been to those booking centers in the Bronx. That shit is not. 

Kamilah Newton: [00:26:42] It's not it's naturally weak. I was, I remember crying and bookings, not because like of this circumstances, but really like, what the fuck did I just do to myself?

What did I just do? Like, I'm so smart. Like I'm only being placed all the time. Like nobody's going to believe me if I called them and told them that I got locked up. But, you know, you do what you have to do for survival sometimes. Um, and at the time I realized that I guess that's what I was doing.

Ultimately I did get put out of the nursing program. So I know, you know, when you look at the graduating photos of LaGuardia, LaGuardia is nursing program. There are no black people in those graduating photos. There are semesters and we don't make it to the end most of the time. So, yeah. 

Abbie Henson: [00:27:25] Yeah. That sounds horrible.

I'm so sorry. So you are in bookings, you're sitting there, you're running through it all in your head. At what point then did a lawyer come 

Kamilah Newton: [00:27:40] think that wasn't until the next day? Next day, like the lawyer came Scott, it was a, like a little booth that you sit in with a lawyer and he was like, you know, I have your case now.

And he's asking me to give him some details about what happened. And of course I had to explain to him that I acted alone, you know, um, because I didn't need that to attack anymore. They had like threaten to charge Jason and I were conspiracy, um, and some more stuff. So I just, you know, I did the best I could given the circumstances, but, um, I suppose to the lawyer at that time, and then some hours later, I remember it was like mid, mid kind of like three or four o'clock by the time I had finally gotten in front of the judge and he was like, you know, we're going to let her out on, you know, her own reconnaissance because she's a mother she's in school.

Like she doesn't need to miss any school. And, um, Yeah, my judge much. It's so funny how that worked out because the judge who actually presides in that room had hurt his back or something. It was out. And I had this wonderful judge, judge , who was just the sweetest, sweetest, sweetest, old man ever. And. He really cared.

He was like, listen, like this girl is already like, she's never even been here before. Like she's trying to do something with her life. No, we all make mistakes. And he was arguing back and forth with the prosecutor on my arm. Yeah. It's 

Abbie Henson: [00:29:09] always so wild to me. Like there's, there are studies that show that later in the day, as judges become hungrier, they.

Like literally hungrier for food. They become more punitive. Like it's wild to me. How, just little things like your fate is really left in the prosecutor and the judges hands to people, your entire world and, and not just your world, but your son's world, your, your grandmother's world, all of these people who love you, your fate is really left 

Kamilah Newton: [00:29:48] up to them.

Yeah. I was able to have things to WPA. I was able to have a very like full-circle moment with that judge and ask him, you know, why me? Why. Why did you take that chance on me? Why did you argue on my behalf? And, um, he said sometimes, you know, he's been doing this for a long time. He's actually retired now.

Um, and he was like, sometimes you just, you take a chance. He looked like someone I could take a chance on. And you know, sometimes those chances worked out. So it's so crazy. Like you said, to know that, um, The fee of my whole existence. Would've just been in someone's hands and off of any whim or a bad morning, or, you know, anything could have swayed that or, um, to completely change the trajectory of my life.

But, you know, thank my ancestors that that's who they placed me with. And, you know, he saw all of me and not just what I was recently arrested for. 

Abbie Henson: [00:30:48] Right, right. And so. You were provided the opportunity to go into the program. It's called justice home. Yeah. And so through justice home, what exactly were the services that they provided 

Kamilah Newton: [00:31:06] through that?

Well, firstly, um, I credit justice home. Um, she has a woman who works there by the name of Miriam. And that was my first point of contact with WPA. And I remember, you know, I sat down with Maryann and I basically gave him the rundown of my entire life story. And by the end of it, she goes, oh, I see why you, why you feel the need to advocate for everyone else because nobody ever advocated for you growing up.

And that was mind blowing for me. It was a light bulb. Went off. I immediately recognized. My calling in life, really like, um, and I do it in different mediums. Sure. But it always goes back to some sort of advocacy for, especially for those who, um, either don't won't can't or. Fails to see the need to advocate for themselves.

And so that was, that was really important. That was one, two. It provided me with a case manager who was consistently checking up on me and not in the like surveillance C annoying house arrest kind of way. Like just making sure I'm good, making sure we have food and making sure, you know, um, w you know, how's school going, how's Jason doing?

You know, cause that's this time he was. The only child I had. And I mean, honestly, till this day they are like that to this day, they continue to check up on me. I mean, they've gotten my kids Christmas gifts. If you name it, they've probably brought it here. Diapers wipes for my newest child. You know, um, they had programs, they had internship program.

That's how I got connected to the Yahoo in the first place. And that's open like a plethora of doors for me just being in a corporate space for the first time they had immediate training program, um, where I learned how to advocate for myself and be a better storyteller, um, and, uh, really. Pay my mission for other people.

They've I mean, the list, the list is so long. Like my grandmother knows people in WPA, like, so 

Abbie Henson: [00:33:18] was it a, was it a miss, um, a misdemeanor charge or a felony? It was a felony charge. 

Kamilah Newton: [00:33:25] Like I said, I think my ancestors cause going in, um, my lawyer was like, I was like, listen, I need a clean record after this. And he was like, how you ask me for a lot?

Like, I don't think I'm able to get that for you. And I was like, trust me, you're going to get it for me. You know, I'm a firm believer in the fact that energy doesn't actually die. Um, it recycles itself, it finds other forms. And I think that all of our ancestors truly are alive and well. And if you give to them, they will give to you.

And they have blessed me tremendously. Even the fact that. Um, I'm able to draw such strength from a moment that was so paralyzing at the time, um, and uses who gives strength to other people I know was a Testament of their love and favor for me. It started out as a felony and by the end of my case, we were able to get it dropped down to a misdemeanor.

And, um, my record is sealed. 

Abbie Henson: [00:34:26] That's amazing. So. When you've had a really interesting, you have, you've gained a lot of perspective on the broad impact of the criminal justice system, because you've not only experienced it as a loved one of an incarcerated person, but as someone who was wrapped up in the system themselves.

So can you talk briefly about what it was like to. Have to bring your son up to Rikers and what that was like to be a visitor. 

Kamilah Newton: [00:35:02] I, I hate bikers. Let me just say that for the record. I hate that place. Um, and that was before I got arrested, I almost feel like they pushed my hands in a lot of ways because.

If they could have had a giant fuck you sign on everybody's forehead. When you get there. Like, I read it loud and clear, like no body, the PR the visitors get cheated. Like we are also serving a sentence. Like my 

Abbie Henson: [00:35:31] breasts have been exposed there 

Kamilah Newton: [00:35:33] during searches. I mean, women have stood in line and told me stories about how they make them take the tampons out to show it to them, to prove.

You're not holding anything. Like I remember it was cold. It was so cold, this one particular visit. And it's always a struggle to get there because all the way in Queens and I'm from the Bronx, I have to take multiple trains and then get on multiple buses to get there. Um, and you have to get there before a certain time, or will you will miss this bus, this one stupid bus that takes you over the bridge.

And if you miss that bus, even if it's not the end of visiting time, if you miss that last bus, you cannot. You won't make it. And so it was constantly running to catch this bus. I remember. Oh my God. Like just a quick story that came to mind. Like, I remember Jason shitting on himself on the train while I was bringing him and having to wash his clothes in the sink at Rikers and dry it under the hand dryer, because we had to get there at one time.

All of it would have been for nothing like it. Like I hated every aspect of having to go there. It's like this dystopian, it's just like, it's the worst. It's the worst place to be at? 

Abbie Henson: [00:36:45] Because we get, as you were saying, indoctrinated at such a young age that like police are the go-to like in case of emergency, if you're victimized, if you feel unsafe, you call the police.

But then we have to think about what is it like. What is it that 

Kamilah Newton: [00:37:03] we equate police 

Abbie Henson: [00:37:05] with safety, and that is such a privileged equation because for so many, that equation has never existed. But I think when we think of like, I'm thinking of the, it takes a village model and thinking about, if you're saying I would tell them to call me, or I'm sure a loved one or something like that.

If you are victimized, what is it exactly that you need at that moment? And I'm sure. Rather than. A stranger, you need love and you need, even if you need services, you need it to come from a loving place. As you were saying, like, you know, to bring it around, like you have this caseworker, who's asking you, what do you need to succeed?

How are you rather than like, do you have clean piss? Right. Like when we think about, when we think about the role of leading someone to success or responding to their trauma or their pain or their engagement in what we've deemed criminal, like we have to lead with love. And I know that sounds like really fluffy, but it's, it's very true.

And if like, If we're thinking about people on parole and the kinds of questions we need to ask to lead them to success. It's it's questions like your case manager. 

Kamilah Newton: [00:38:20] Absolutely. I think that justice home did such an excellent job of showing me the power of. A support system, you know, like how you explained.

I think that their greatest claim to fame is giving the women involved access to the things that they needed that probably could have prevented all of our arrests in the first place. You know, if I had a therapist from when I was way younger, I probably wouldn't have been there. If I knew that I could just call somewhere and that they were going to hold my molester accountable, like, you know, I didn't grow up with that in the home.

So I, I knew not to let it leave my lips. Um, you know, but so many things, I mean, if I had. Assets who people who would help reinforce with my work is, and, um, teach me about patterns of abuse and what they look like and what to avoid and where to go when you get here. Things like that. If I had access to all that information at like 14, I would have never ended up in jail.

You know, if I knew where to get food and money and potentially clothes or shelter on my own. And without so many barriers, I likely I'll fuck around and may not even have had my child. Like I was a wounded child seeking refuge and me and Jason's father did a lot of trauma bonding. We were both seeking refuge when we found it in one another.

I was just going to say, I think that it, both of us had access to certain services. Things would be a lot different 

Abbie Henson: [00:40:04] also. Not only do you have the perspective of being like the visitor and the arrestee, but you also have been victimized. And so I'm curious how, how you view the idea of abolition, how you view.

The current, the idea of holding someone accountable, because I think so often when we have discussions on abolition, it always comes back to this idea of like, well, what about the child molester? Like, do you want him out? And so as someone like yourself, who's so critical of the system itself and who has experienced the trauma of just being wrapped up in the system, but who has also been victimized as a child by someone?

How do you. Or like, what would your idea be of creating. A way to keep children like you safe and holding the individual accountable, but also moving away from the very racist and traumatizing system that we have today, 

Kamilah Newton: [00:41:06] money would have to be re allotted and put towards services, put towards recreational facilities for children to have productive things to do after school, um, money towards.

Therapy services so that maybe there can be some free therapy services that are being offered to children because so much of this stuff starts young. So much of this stuff starts long before you're an adult. Like you can't start dealing with the problems. Then I think that a lot of the time, this country has a weird way of life.

Think of it like a rotting tree. And the leaves are brown. They will put all this money into spray painting the leaves brain instead of like watering the tree. Like, so I think, um, there's so much that can be said about where the money is better spent, but I'm absolutely down with the idea of the funding.

The police department send that money to somewhere where it needs to be. 

Abbie Henson: [00:42:03] This has been such a valuable conversation because I think you bring such complexity in your perspective. And I think the other thing that's so problematic is that so much of the way that we speak about these issues is incredibly an, you know, uh, pun unintended, like very black and white.

Like we always think it's either or, and it can be both. And like, you can be someone who says, you know, keep. Rapist on the rap sheet and have someone sitting in jail and also someone who says defund the police and who has experienced trauma from the system. And I think that those nuances and the complexity, which is exactly how you started out to say that you are going to unpack the nuance is what we need to bring forward in the conversation to allow people to understand that it's not simple.

Yeah. 

Kamilah Newton: [00:42:58] So thank you again, like I said, for having me and I'm having these important conversations, but I do think that this is the first,

Abbie Henson: [00:43:10] thank you so much for participating in my critical conversation with Camilla Newton. The number of women in prison has ballooned over the last four decades by over 800% increasing from 12,300 women in 1980 to over 182,000 women today, this means women incarceration rates. Have increased by twice the rate as men in America.

So when we talk about the phenomena of mass incarceration, it's critical to include women's experiences, particularly black women as black women account for 30% of the prison population, despite black folks, accounting for only 13% of the U S population like Comilla. The majority of women in prison have experienced trauma, 86% of women in jail report, experiencing sexual violence prior to arrest.

And a study of all women in California. Prisons found that 92% had been battered and abused in their lifetimes justice home provided Camilla the opportunity to participate in therapy, which gave her the insights and tools needed to address that. Her own trauma and to advocate for herself and others.

Her experience with justice home also enabled her to remain present in her child's life. However, not all women are so lucky, 80% of women in jails, and two thirds of all women in state prisons are mothers. The majority of whom were the primary caregiver prior to their incarceration, the effect of the criminal justice system, where we incarcerate the poorest and most traumatized causes wounds deep enough to affect multiple generations through over-policing over arresting and over incarcerating, the criminal justice system perpetuates cycles of violence by inflicting trauma.

Not only on those arrested and convicted, but also on those individuals loved ones and communities. So how do we end this cycle? 90% of police calls are for nonviolent issues with no presence of a deadly weapon. So we have to think about what victims need. For those calling for help after being victimized, who and what would be best in response.

This is something we need to think critically about next episode, I'll be speaking with Dr. Rayshawn Ray, a fellow at the Brookings Institute, a professor of sociology and the executive director of the lab for applied social science research at the university of Maryland. In this episode, we speak about tangible solutions to the policing crisis in America.

I hope you'll tune in. Expect new episodes every other Monday. And don't forget to subscribe, rate and leave a review. I look forward to reading your feedback. I am Abbie Henson, and this was critical conversations.