How Prison Impacts the Mind, Body, and Soul with Abd'Allah Lateef

This critical conversation features Abd’allah Lateef, the Senior Strategic Advisor and Racial Equity Specialist at the Campaign for the Fair Sentencing of Youth. Sentenced to life without the possibility of parole as a child, Abd’allah was resentenced and released in 2017 after spending over 30 years in prison. In this episode, Abd’allah provides an intimate account of the effects of prison on the mind, body, and soul. As a means of moving forward, we discuss how public safety can and should be achieved by restoring community rather than seeking retribution.

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Transcript

Lateef: [00:00:00] It's not just that you're sent away, disappear from society with the expectation of dying in prison, but it's also the one-time disregard for your dignity just as a, as a human being that is so prevalent. It's almost painful. That you're constantly being reinforced either through policy, practice or procedure that your life is meaningless and worthless and you're not afforded just the basic dignity of, of a human.

[00:00:33] Please listen carefully. 

[00:00:36] Abbie: [00:00:36] Welcome to critical conversations. My name is Abby Henson and I'll be the one conversing with our guests. And I also serve as an assistant professor in the school of criminology and criminal justice at Arizona state university. After the killing of George Floyd, my social media blew up.

[00:00:54] I kept seeing posts and reposts as stories. All about criminal and social justice issues. However, much of what I was seeing were just flat words that lacked voice and depth and nuance. And so I wanted to create a space where those words could come alive. I wanted to engage in dialogues with people who had actually been impacted by the criminal justice system, whether through their own experience research or both.

[00:01:21] I felt this was the moment to think critically to examine the complexities of our system in place today, and to figure out how to move forward in a way that allows for equity and true justice. So I started hosting live web. Both in an attempt to have the audience be active participants either by raising their hand and joining the conversation, or by contributing a question to the chat box and to also build a sense of community and togetherness in a time when yeah.

[00:01:53] So isolated through quarantine, but because of zoom fatigue, and with people starting to slowly move their lives beyond the home, as places open up, I wanted to figure out a way to keep these conversations going away from the screen. So I started this podcast in order to reach a broader audience and keep these issues in your ear as you move throughout your day.

[00:02:18] And while it can be really overwhelming to think about how to change a massive system, that seems so ingrained in the fabric of our society by participating in these conversations. You just listening to this podcast is participating. That is where we see true change beginning. Hey everyone. Thank you so much for joining me in this critical conversation with Abdullah Lateef.

[00:02:50] Abdullah is the senior strategic advisor and racial equity specialist at the campaign for the fair sentencing. Sentenced to life without the possibility of parole as a child of Della was re-sentenced and released in 2017. After spending over 30 years in prison. In this episode of Della provides an intimate account of the effects of prison on the mind, body and soul, as a means of moving forward, we discuss how public safety can and should be achieved by restoring community rather than seeking retribution.

[00:03:26] I hope that you enjoy this episode, feel engaged, send this episode to at least one person you think might be interested and please as always continue the conversation once the episode is up. 

[00:03:38] Lateef: [00:03:38] So once again, thank you. Thank you so much for having me and I look forward to a robust conversation around the most important, one of the most important topics of our day.

[00:03:48] And so I'll begin with my name as Abdullah. Latif. I am a former life sentenced child. Having been disappeared from society for 31 years before being released. I currently reside in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania and have been released since October of 2017. I currently work as a senior strategic advisor and a racial equity specialist with the campaign for the fair sentencing of youth.

[00:04:21] Which is a advocacy based or nonprofit organization headquartered in Washington DC. Right. 

[00:04:29] Abbie: [00:04:29] I really, I haven't heard someone say disappeared as a, not necessarily as a passive word, but as a purposeful action, right. You were purposefully disappeared. And so before we get into all of that, I'm wondering if you can kind of break that down for the audience and, um, explain why you use that term.

[00:04:52] Lateef: [00:04:52] Prisons across the country, but especially here in Pennsylvania are generally built in the most remote regions of the state and often 300, 400 or 500 miles away from your community. You literally get the sense that you have been disappeared from society. Like it's this, not only are you enclosed in some cases with walls that literally come from the middle medieval time, it, it w it's a Relic of the medieval times in terms of design, but even when there's, why are ways race or fences?

[00:05:35] You're in the middle of the wilderness. Like you can only look out and to see that you're surrounded by trees. You get no sense of geography and where you are. And so you get this sense that you're unseen. 

[00:05:50] Abbie: [00:05:50] I wanted to just start off by talking about where you grew up and what led you to your incarceration.

[00:06:00] Lateef: [00:06:00] So I was born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, raised in a county to Southwest of Philadelphia, Montgomery county. And essentially I grew up as an, in a suburbian residential area, crime wasn't particularly high in the area, not the standard. And I would say that much alpha was typical and an event for grew up in a fundamentally Christian household where my early work recollections was just like always being attached to my mother at the hip.

[00:06:37] And she was a avid church goer from Bible study choir rehearsal, the whole gambit. And so as a small child, I would always be attached to her and was somewhat looked at within that community as like the product you'll sign. And it wasn't until my Bible study teacher relocate that there was a personal affinity and affection there.

[00:07:01] And when she left, I just, I just stopped going as well. So at this time I was about nine or 10 years. So it wasn't until a few years later that I had a horrific bicycle bicycling accident where I flipped over the handlebars and landed on my face and suburb my upper lip. So I had reconstructive plastic surgery to re attach my lip.

[00:07:28] And at this time I'm like 13 years old. And going to school. I just rip it so vividly. Remember that is being teased and bullied. I tell this one individually, Columbia, not the name of tremendous amount. And sure enough, he called me another name. I punched him in his mouth. And so obviously I was taken to the principal's office and, and he came back and he just said, you can't go around hitting people.

[00:07:56] And we have to suspend you. My father was the retired veteran, but also had a restaurant and a few rental properties. So he was never home. He was always, always, always out. And my mother worked full time as a, as a registered, uh, Nurse practitioner. And so while I was supposed to be on punishment because I was fighting, I would always do my chores and go out and sneak out of the home when I wasn't supposed to be.

[00:08:27] And in doing so, I encountered older people in that neighborhood. When I say older, I actually mean at this time, like I say, I'm 13, 14 years old and started interacting with people who are already out of high school, 18, 19, 20 years or older. But what became evident is that they didn't tease me for my deformity.

[00:08:46] And so that became at home as well. So fast forward, one of the particular individuals to whom I developed a relationship was actually a 21 year old homeless person and one. July 9th, 1986. He came to me asking for my assistance to perform, but he didn't even articulate what it was at the time. Just I need to get some money and I need to help.

[00:09:14] And we've engaged previously. It could have been anything to selling dummy bags of reefer or shoplifting, never any, any violent offenses or nothing like that. So on this particular night, he says, I'm not going to tell you until we get there. And he walks me in this neighborhood. I've never been before.

[00:09:33] And it's a residential neighborhood. We come to a residential home, it tells me how neat I'm going to sneak in. Once I get inside, I want you to knock on a door. When a man comes to the door, go through his pack, his, take his belongings, and we're out. And it happened just like that. He's stuck in through the back door.

[00:09:55] I went and knocked on the door. A elderly gentleman came to the door. He grabbed him from, from behind a ratchet pull. His pockets, took his belongings. We flirt as he left, he threw the man to the car. He suffered. What later we found out was a fractured femur. So he went to the hospital on the, on the first night, immediately after the incident was treated with a ice pack and Tylenol and released, he returned to the hospital a day later, still complaining of hip pain and determined that it was a borderline fracture, decided to do a surgery.

[00:10:31] Complications ensued from the Anastasia had a bowel obstruction. 18 days later, he died of heart failure. I was charged with the adult as an adult for first degree. Second, third degree murder voluntary. And voluntary manslaughter, robbery, or burglary, criminal conspiracy and criminal trespass, and ultimately found guilty of second degree felony murder, which carries a mandatory sentence of life without possibility of parole.

[00:11:07] And how old were you? So I was 17 when that process began and by the time it concluded, I had just turned 19. 

[00:11:17] Abbie: [00:11:17] So you grew up religious when you received the sentence, how did you reckon with that? How did you view it? 

[00:11:29] Lateef: [00:11:29] So there are the backdrop to this story in terms of the sentencing aspect of it. So by co-defendant the 21 year old adult ended up with a seven to 20 year old, 20 year sentence.

[00:11:43] He served eight and a half before he was released. I was offered a plea deal, which would have had me guilty of involuntary manslaughter and subject to a two and a half to five year sentence. I accepted that plea and that the prosecutor offered, but when my parents found out about it, they were livid.

[00:12:08] And forbid me from going through with, with the offer. Now, what was their reasoning for doing so. Was bitten. Think I was responsible for the death because I wasn't the one who physically caused the harm. And ultimately he died of a heart attack and they just couldn't make the connection. And their concern was as a black child with a felony conviction.

[00:12:39] What particularly for the homicide, with that impact would be on my future. And no one, not my defense attorney, not the prosecutor, not the judge, no one informed myself or, or, or my parents that have found guilty. I would face a mandatory life without possibility of parole sentence. The very first time that I hear of this is as the judges pronouncing the, 

[00:13:10] Abbie: [00:13:10] so over your.

[00:13:15] Over a 30 year incarceration, the rage that you just explain, all the emotions raging inside of you, were there ever, was there ever a time where you found a piece? I 

[00:13:31] Lateef: [00:13:31] think that there were short spurts of that throughout my incarceration. And usually it's in those moments where you can. Not just rationalize, but I think internalize fate, right.

[00:13:51] And internalize that there's something greater than this world and there's still purpose. And you try to find that silver lining. And know that there's a divine wisdom at play, even if you can't recognize it immediately. And so as faith waivers, and sometimes it's strong and sometimes it's weak, you kind of like vacillate between those degrees of understanding and conceptualization.

[00:14:23] And then there's other times where there's like, fuck that. Like, no, there's just no. No. Like, yeah. There's, there's no peace. There's no solids. There's no understanding. There's just, there's just, there's just outrage. Right. And I think that even as you conceptualize this, it's, it's not just outrage to. What happened to me, it's not just outraged at the fact that I put myself in that predicament by engaging in criminal episode.

[00:14:59] Even beyond that it's the outreach about, and I guess we could talk about this to some extent about the conditions of confinement, right? It's it's it's, it's not just that you're sent away, disappear from society with the expectation of dying in prison. But it's also the one time disregard for your dignity, just as a, as a human being.

[00:15:24] That is so prevalent. It's almost palpable. That you're constantly being reinforced either through policy practice or procedure that your life is meaningless and worthless, and you're not afforded just the basic dignity of, of a human being. 

[00:15:44] Abbie: [00:15:44] Can you give some concrete examples 

[00:15:47] Lateef: [00:15:47] to that? A jumpsuit, which is almost always too big or too small and almost always buttons missing.

[00:15:57] And then you get a mattress that has stains with who knows what, and you have to March away and make your way to a cell that looks literally in many instances like this abandoned crack home. And there's no like, like it's normal. It's like that, like, yeah, this is, this is prison. Like welcome to your life.

[00:16:30] You're seeing the violence take place. The stabbings, you see the drug addictions, you see all of these things going on and there's just like this deliberate indifference I'm going to shower. And you have to go to shower with boots or. And a coat in which you have whatever protection that you have to protect yourself from.

[00:16:54] Booty band. And so people who would look for vulnerable people that rape and as a, as a young individual, as a child, essentially, you're automatically a target. So when you're saying these things, like I say, from the conditions of confinement, whether it's around cleanliness, whether it's around policy and procedure, that just is indicative of.

[00:17:18] And difference to, to just human dignity or if you're just even looking at the violence that all around you, coupled with the harshest of sounds, whether it's sirens constantly going off bells and whistles, so-called correctional officers, guards, barking orders. Howard is screaming metal gates, champ slamming shut.

[00:17:43] It's like a constant and. To your question when you're talking about solace, like pace, not just like within and with your circumstance, it's hard to come to, to, to grips, to come to peace with just being in that empowerment, because it's so unnatural and it irks your soul. So when you think about prisons and I guess the way to conceptualize it is that as a place of restriction, Right.

[00:18:14] A loss of freedom. And as you think about the way in which we experienced the world, right through our, through our five senses, right? The sense of hearing touch, sight, smell, prison, restricts all of those things. It diminishes all of those things to a significant degree degree. And so when we use like examples about the sense of sight.

[00:18:37] Right. I told you about like being in this structure, 40 feet, tall walls, gray dingy. And you're always seeing the same thing. You're always seeing the same colors, the same uniforms, the same faces, right? So the kaleidoscope of color. You are deprived of that. Likewise, with the sense of hearing, hearing, you don't hear those beautiful melodies or birds chirping laughter joy.

[00:19:06] It's always these harsh shrill sounds of the penitentiary and likewise, with the sense of touch and you think about how you may engage and have intimate moments with your loved ones or your family or your children. And you, you don't have that. You're, you're, you're stripped of that ability. And likewise, we can go down the line with tastes, right?

[00:19:28] Everybody knows about prison food that at apples, should we even qualify as, as, as food to such an extent that you literally, your taste buds, like it starts to lose sensation and the ability to, to taste. Right? And so like when you go through all of your senses through which you experience the world, that makes you feel alive.

[00:19:50] Prison is designed by its very nature to severely curtail or diminish your ability. To live through your experiences and through your senses. 

[00:20:04] Abbie: [00:20:04] Yeah, I think so. I've spent a good amount of time in Graterford and all of your descriptions are accurate. The gray, the dinge, the sound of the metal gates slamming just, yeah, the shrillness of it is something that I can really relate to in that experience and just the.

[00:20:24] Total lack of control, right? Like even for me, when I would come to visit or to volunteer or whatever, you would be sitting there for hours with no one telling you what's going on and you would just wait and wait and you couldn't bring your phone. And so you have no idea what time it is even. And there's just.

[00:20:53] Yeah. For anyone who's working or like experiencing the prison. It's it's so it's just such a total institution and it's, it's, it's interesting that you were talking about the shrillness. Cause I remember I was doing a focus group interview with a bunch of men who had gone through fathers and children together who had then come home and we were all in the interview and this one.

[00:21:20] Man who had just been released two weeks prior, his alarm went off and there was like this horrible, like rent, like the craziest sound. And everyone started laughing at him and they were like, man, your institution, what are you doing used to that? And so you just, so I think. Something that we need to really think critically about is the need at all for punishment.

[00:21:56] And whether punishment is synonymous with accountability, because I think accountability for harm is necessary, but the kind of punishment that we ensue, the kind of punishment that we subject individuals to, we have to unpack that because it's not, first of all. Why do we latch punishment with loss of freedom?

[00:22:22] This is something that we've internalized, even, you know, when we punish a little kid, we put them in time out. They're isolated, they're in a place that they can't go anywhere. And they've lost their privileges. They've lost their freedoms and privileges. And so I think we have to think as a society of why we lean towards loss of freedom as the way to hold individuals accountable for the harms they've caused and.

[00:22:53] And this is the other, you know, tangential piece of it is that there are people in prison such as yourself who did not even mean to cause harm or who just didn't, who were wrongfully convicted in general. And so I think we often forget about that when we talk about reform or transforming the system, we often talk about.

[00:23:15] Holding people accountable and what to do, but there's a huge population of people like yourself. And I think that's an important point because I worry that people who had listened to this episode would be like, wow, that's such a unique story that he has, like what a fluke, everyone else in prison. Like they did their thing.

[00:23:34] And that's not to say that your story is not unique because it absolutely is. But I think. A lot of people in prison who have similar experiences, not exactly to your story, but ultimately the same kind of issues. And so I think we have to think about why we focus on loss of freedom. And then if that's how we're packaging punished.

[00:23:58] Then why then compound punishment with the absence of senses with horrible food, with horrible, I mean, subjecting individuals to a violent environment, right? It's not just loss of freedom. It's putting them in a place where they're receiving perpetual retribution for a crime that they may or may not have.

[00:24:22] And so I think what's hard for me too, is when we think about like, when we're then moving into a discussion on problem solving and transfer transformation, a lot of people are like, well, if we look at the Norwegian prison system, we could create like a college environment and there can be this structure for individual.

[00:24:45] And I do think that there are certain individuals for the safety of themselves and others who need to go to a space that is structured for however long, right. However long they need treatment. But for the majority of people, it. It's hard for me to say, there should be this other, we can, we can kind of think of how to reform prison, reshape literally the physical aspects of prison to be better.

[00:25:16] You know, when you think about, when you think about changing prisons, How, like what, what is it about the structure do you think it's just, we need to total overhaul in thinking about how we punish in general and abolish prisons, or as someone who's spent all that time. What, what are your thoughts on ways to move forward in a way that holds people accountable for harms that they actually committed, but also does that.

[00:25:50] Kill individuals as it does in prison 

[00:25:53] Lateef: [00:25:53] coming through that experience, you would think that it would be a no brainer like abolition. Right. And it actually took me a very long time to, to reach that space, like within the last two years or so. And, and, and because solely because of practicality. Like there, there's some serious, serious offenses that are taking place in our society, serious harm that has taken place.

[00:26:22] And just from a practical sense, struggling, like what the alternative is to, to, to save life and to reduce harm. And so it took me a while to, to, to, to work through that and, and reach a place where. I would consider myself an evolutionist today. Whereas that, that wouldn't be the case, but to your central theme about this idea, this notion that retribution punishment for harm is the way to mitigate harm, help you hold people accountable.

[00:27:01] And in some way, Produce either reformation or deterrence are any of the other options. The four justification that we use for prison. Statistically, like if we examine where we are in this era of mass incarceration, the justification that we use, the pin, a logical justification that we use for incarceration, those things lose legitimacy when you, because if they weren't, we wouldn't be at the rate of incarceration that, that, that we are.

[00:27:39] And we have enough information. Now say that this is a, this is a failed experiment and there are others. Ways of addressing harm that actually literally reduce harm. And so there's this notion that I think that I like to endorse. I don't think it's a notion. I think it's the reality that harm people often harm others, but it's also true that help people help heal others as well.

[00:28:09] And so if we're really about harm reduction, which ends. The political sense as public safety, then why are we not looking at people who produce harm as people who themselves were harmed? And because there's not adequate structures to address that underlying harm, then we're perpetrating a cycle of harm within our communities.

[00:28:38] And so maybe it's like looking at crime, not as like this. Public safety thing, but as a public health thing and making sure that people are healthy and whole. And so that means that you're not going to be looking to punish people, but hold people accountable and dignified ways that restores harm as, as best as possible.

[00:29:04] And also. Kind of like mitigates and Hills, the person who committed the heart as well. And so I think that, that this whole, where we are in this, this restorative justice, and I don't mean like the traditional Y orientation towards like, whereas just like the offender so-called apologizing and acknowledging, but this whole systemic thing, right.

[00:29:31] And this ethos of community. There's a place in space is hopefully where this reform movement. And to the extent that you mentioned, like there are some people who have some serious and complicated mental health issues. I think that the problem is that. The way that we're responding to that is with more punishment, longer sentences and throwing people in prison.

[00:29:59] One, if it's demonstrated that there are psychological and mental issues that play, then the place for them. A prison. It's where they can get adequate mental health treatment and a mental health facility. And so for that reason, I don't think that there's really a need or a place or for, for a penitentiary as we know it.

[00:30:21] And, and we can reduce harm and help. Individuals and communities hill and ways that are, are dignified. And I think that there are examples in other parts of the world that we would do well to study and emulate because it does work and yield benefits. 

[00:30:37] Abbie: [00:30:37] Yeah. I agree with that. And I think, you know, in thinking about it, because most places have banned corporal punishment, right.

[00:30:46] The idea, I feel like. As a society, we are, we need visuals to understand harm and pain. And so like when we think about whipping enslaved individuals, or when we think about using a belt or a ruler or whatever for corporal punishing, There's a lot that shows how it impacts individuals developmentally negatively and all of these things.

[00:31:15] And I think the way that you're framing prison is a punishment, not only on the soul. But also on the body. And I think we need to consider that when we talk about the harms of prison and I want to move into, you know, segue into the idea of how the trauma of that experience, you know, we just broke down all of these issues with prison, and then we know that 95% of individuals are returning home.

[00:31:49] And so. As someone who has returned. And I know that you're part of groups of individuals who have returned. You said something when we were on the phone about how there's a self-imposed obligation to minimize the trauma you've endured in prison to make others feel safe. And I was hoping that you could talk to us about that process just in.

[00:32:15] In knowing that you have to do that and also how that's done and how the trauma manifests on the outside when you've returned 

[00:32:27] Lateef: [00:32:27] in the, in the, in the thank you for that reminder and an important discussion and so forth for context, it's interesting that. Um, in my case and that of our former life sentence children, it was the United States Supreme court, eighth amendment jurisprudence, which is about cruel and unusual punishment.

[00:32:54] Right. And so you could easily say that imposing a life sentence on a child. Is a manifestation of cruel and unusual punishment. But I would argue that it's not just the length of time itself, right? Because if that was the case, that de facto life sentence is cruel and unusual as well. And I believe it is, but it's not just that the court spoke about hopelessness, confining a child to hopelessness for the rest of their life.

[00:33:31] And that isn't a physical thing, right? It isn't tangible in that way where we can say like lashes and, and different forms of physical punishment that we've got away from and substitute it with incarceration. Right. Because we can't see that damage that is being done to the psyche, to the soul, to the, to the mental, to the, we can only appreciate the physical.

[00:33:55] And so to explore that. That theme of hopelessness, of being deprived from not just your Liberty and hope of being free when you're sentenced to death by incarceration or otherwise a life sentence. But when you're also subjected to things that in its very core, not only does it fail to recognize. Or appreciate, but it actively works against your humanity, your sense of dignity, your sense of self, your sense of purpose, your sense of worth.

[00:34:39] How, how do you calibrate what it means and what it does to the psyche to feel worthless, to feel as though your only purpose is to serve time and perpetuity. 

[00:34:54] Abbie: [00:34:54] I'm honestly amazed that individuals with life sentences, aren't committing mass suicide. Like, what is it, if you know that you are incarcerated death by incarceration, what keeps you from not ending early?

[00:35:12] Lateef: [00:35:12] So it's interesting that, because I think it's important when I speak about these things. To hold space for people who I personally know who their fate was just that. And I literally remember, and I'll call them by name. Cause I know he would like to be honored in this way. John Young, who was served an excess of 45 years actually was incarcerated, I believe in 1969.

[00:35:46] And. I remember we Murray on the recreation yard and the Abdul Latif, like, why do I keep doing this to myself? And it was a rhetorical question and we didn't elaborate, but it was in the context of just like looking at what prison had become, like in terms of. The youth, the people, the hyper management micromanagement of every aspect of your life.

[00:36:17] And it's like, why do I keep doing this to myself? And two days later he committed home, he suicide and it brought to mind something that I heard just a, a few years earlier from another personal friend, Victor Hussein. Who said that after his last commutation, I can't do this no more reminiscent of John Young.

[00:36:45] Like why do I continue to, to perpetually punish myself by waking up every day to this. And when I think of how many people that I know personally over the years who have committed suicide, just because they reached that point of clearly just being hopeless beyond, beyond imagination and a sense of despair.

[00:37:13] And when you get to the point where death is more. Uh, Laurie then clinging on to a life in prison. That tells us, then you begin to conceptualize. Yeah. That, that, that, that tells you something. And so it's, there's phases to it. And because like any, and any other time or day, you might think of these people as like, they do have both of them.

[00:37:43] Where paralegals did incredible work around prison reform, helping people fight their litigate, their cases just outreach to the community. Like they were so engaged leaders of, of civic organizations. And you would think on the surface that they were so well adjusted and that their life has so much meaning and purpose, even again, helping people.

[00:38:10] And they extort me ways in which they did. And yet at the end of the day, even with all of that prolong prison became too much to bear. And so I think it does have. And it's not talked about often, but there are many people and I can speak personally from my own experience. I literally came to the recognition and acceptance that if this last push for release, didn't come through that.

[00:38:55] I too was ready to check out. I suspect that I'm not the only one who felt that way. And I'm certain that there is others right now who are similarly situated and feeling the same things. So 

[00:39:11] Abbie: [00:39:11] luckily we're released, luckily it didn't happen. And you're here with us and. A key point that we have to engage in.

[00:39:23] When we talk about prison abolition is that a lot of people will say, then what about a serial rapist? Right? They use that term. What about a serial rapist? What about a serial killer? The fact that someone has committed rape numerous times, or the fact that someone has murdered numerous times is only a display of the fact that whatever we're doing is not working right.

[00:39:50] We don't have the services in place to have stopped that from happening. We're not punishing quote unquote punishing in the right way. For that to not happen. And so the existence of a serial quote, unquote rapist or quote unquote murderer, right? These dehumanizing terms that are total terms that label and identify a person, right?

[00:40:17] The existence of those kinds of people. It's just showing us that we need to do something different. And if we did something different, it's possible that those people wouldn't exist. And so I think that that's really important to think about because there's an assumption that. If we get rid of prisons, if we change these things, these people are going to continue to exist and what do we do with them?

[00:40:44] But I think it's important to note that change systemic change will lead to personal change. And for certain individuals where it doesn't work, we'll figure something out. It's not a silver, silver bullet, but I do think that it's a really important point to bring up. Because it's such a fear that people have because of the fear-mongering that you're talking about, that politicians are engaging in.

[00:41:09] We have this idea that these people will exist no matter what, but if we provide the right supports and services, it's likely that those experiences. Well also be transformed 

[00:41:23] Lateef: [00:41:23] in the NT and the apps. Absolutely. I, I, 100% agree with, with the way that you framed that. And I w I would just add to that, there's this, this idea that we're worthy of redemption, right.

[00:41:42] And people can and do transform. But when you have sentencing schemes that don't account for that, and don't allow for recognition of that transformation, don't allow for redemption. Then that in and of itself is, is injustice. Well, and I don't want to make this focus be just about the person who's serving time or their families and their communities.

[00:42:12] That's certainly a very, very important factor that, that we always have to take into consideration. But even beyond that, those who have been victimized like black community, isn't a monolithic. And what we're finding in our practice. And particularly, even at the organization, the nonprofit that I, that I work with, where there's an intentionality about reaching out to and galvanizing and being a port away.

[00:42:45] For everyone that touches all sides of how harm, whether it's children who perpetrated it, whether it's family members who have lost loved ones to youth violence or family members who have lost loved ones to lifetime incarceration, like everyone who's touched by harm on, on all sides of the issue, bringing them together in community where it's about.

[00:43:09] It's about restoration, but it's also about hope and healing and a real in a tangible way. And then engaging in communities who are the recipients of harm. Like, I can't tell you not only for my personal experience, but also from what I've witnessed. About how transformative that is and their lives. Right?

[00:43:32] How many people who had the burden of losing a loved one to violence and just simply could not make sense of it and going through those stages of anger and resentment and always questioning their faith, their why, the, why, the, how it happened, living in insecurity. Unable to manage anger in various different ways of which harm manifest in people's lives and to be in a space with individuals who have caused.

[00:44:07] And to have dialogue, right. And walk through a process of, of reconciliation for whatever the, whatever it looks like for, for those individuals. And when people come away and not only with this sense of relief, inhaling and understanding, but a renewed sense of purpose. Like this happened in my life, but this experience has made me a better person for it.

[00:44:41] It's the dynamic is just, it's just hard to articulate the power of seeing those dynamics come together and play out in the healing that takes place. And so I don't want to leave with this notion that this is just all about people who are incarcerated. There's also a benefit to those who are the recipients of harm while keeping in mind that many people who committed harm.

[00:45:08] They've been subjected to, right. I mean, I was violated, right. I I've had loved ones who have lost to governments to murder. Right. So, so, so it's, it's not this like us against the, we are one community and we're trying to heal and grow and support one another. And when you see that dynamic at a place and the results and the benefits that accrue for everyone, As a result of that, then you have the sense of hopelessness.

[00:45:37] I mean, a hopefulness. Of what I don't even want to say criminal justice could be, but what restored communities could be to do that, and it is taking place. We just have to continue to amplify and push on and not be afraid to step away from the traditional and not afraid to embrace some degree of uncertainty.

[00:46:04] Right. And to be, not to be so risk adverse. That we're scared to try something new and we're looking for the perfect cause we don't have the perfect now, so we certainly can do better. 

[00:46:18] Abbie: [00:46:18] And that is for sure. I think that's a great place to end. I really have enjoyed this conversation with you. I really appreciate you spending the time with me.

[00:46:28] So thank you. 

[00:46:29] Lateef: [00:46:29] Yeah, thank you so much. I appreciate it. 

[00:46:34] Abbie: [00:46:34] Thank you so much for participating in my critical conversation with Adela Latif, I found Abdullah's discussion on the way prison kills the five senses to be incredibly powerful, to hear the tangible ways in which prison affects the body and psyche.

[00:46:50] I also think the discussion around abolition was really effective. It's important to note that abolition is not simply the opening of prison gates and the closing of carceral facilities, but it's also the implementation of services and resources that would enhance public safety. Be existence in today's society of the quote unquote, worst of the worst or the ones who are scapegoated in narratives.

[00:47:14] Opposing abolition demonstrates how we do not adequately address trauma, poverty, segregation, social instability. And other predictors of harmful behavior today with prison abolition would also hopefully come the abolition of such harm. The proposition of abolition is holistic change. That would impact systems, communities and individuals abolition forces us to think about ways to heal and hold accountability beyond the harmful punishment.

[00:47:46] It is possible. We just have to be creative. Expects new episodes every other Monday. And don't forget to subscribe, rate and leave a review and send this to someone you think might like it. I'm Abby Henson, and this is critical conversations.