Dying to Live in Prison with Stacey Torrance

In this episode, I’m joined by Stacey Torrance. Stacey was sentenced to life without the possibility of parole at the age of 14. Upon the supreme court ruling that sentencing children to life without parole was unconstitutional, Stacey was released after 30 years in prison. In this episode, we speak about how he maintained hope throughout his sentence, the harsh reality check he confronted upon returning home, his experiences with restorative justice, and how proximity and conversation can challenge assumptions and contribute to the healing process.

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Transcript

CC Stacey

Stacey: [00:00:00] In order for me to survive, I had to die in order to live. I couldn't exist in Britain for a state penitentiary and survive acting like a 14 year old. Please listen, carefully 

[00:00:18] Abbie: [00:00:18] welcomed critical conversations. My name is Abby Henson and I'll be the one conversing with our guests. And I also serve as an assistant professor in the school of criminology and criminal justice at Arizona state university.

[00:00:33] After the killing of George Floyd, my social media blew up. I kept seeing people. And reposts and stories all about criminal and social justice issues. However, much of what I was seeing were just flat words that lacked voice and depth and nuance. And so I wanted to create a space where those words could come alive.

[00:00:55] I wanted to engage in dialogues with people who had actually been impacted by the criminal justice system, whether through their own experience research or. I felt this was the moment to think critically to examine the complexities of our system in place today, and to figure out how to move forward in a way that allows for equity and true justice.

[00:01:17] So I started hosting live webinars, both in an attempt to have the audience be active participants either by raising their hand and joining the conversation, or by contributing a question to the chat box and to also build a sense of community and togetherness in a timeline. So isolated through quarantine, but because of zoom fatigue, and with people starting to slowly move their lives beyond the home, as places open up, I wanted to figure out a way to keep these conversations going away from the screen.

[00:01:52] So I started this podcast in order to reach a broader audience and keep these issues in your ear. As you move throughout your day. And while it can be really overwhelming to think about how to change a massive system, that seems so ingrained in the fabric of our society by participating in these conversations.

[00:02:14] And yes, you just listening to this podcast is participating. That is where we see true change beginning. Hey everyone. Thank you so much for joining me in this critical conversation with Stacey Torrance, Stacy was sentenced to life without the possibility of parole at the age of 14, upon the Supreme court ruling that sentencing children to life without parole was unconstitutional.

[00:02:45] Stacy was released after 30 years in prison. In this episode, we speak about how he maintained hope throughout his sentence. The harsh reality check he confronted upon returning home his experiences with restorative justice and how proximity and conversation can challenge assumptions and contribute to the healing process.

[00:03:06] I hope that you enjoy this episode, feeling engaged, send it to at least one person you think might be interested and please as always continue the conversation. Once the episode is. I met you through a mutual friend who was working on the re sentencing of those who had been sentenced to mandatory life without the possibility of parole as children.

[00:03:33] I'm wondering if you could. For our listeners give some insight into how old you were when you went in, what exactly happened to get you in. And then when you got out, when was that? 

[00:03:50] Stacey: [00:03:50] I was 14 years old. When I went to prison, I went to prison for murder for second degree murder. Sometimes I don't like to like get into in depth detail about the case, because I don't want to.

[00:04:04] Put the victim's family through that experience again, you know, sometimes when you uncover those wounds, it kinda like, you know, put them back in that place. When I talk about the situation, I've tried to be mindful of, uh, the victim and the victim's family and everything they've been through during this whole experience and whatnot.

[00:04:24] I went to prison at the age of 14 for homicide, and it was a situation where a young man. It was supposed to be a robbery. And I actually had three adult co-defendants one of the, uh, my co-defendants is my cousin, but he was a big influence over my life. And so I became involved in this situation with them and because of him and, uh, the young man end up getting murdered, they ended up murdering the young man.

[00:04:53] I was arrested for conspiracy and went to trial and I was convicted of second degree murder. And insensitive to a life without parole. And I was released in 2017, may of 2017. 

[00:05:09] Abbie: [00:05:09] And that was right after. That was essentially right after it became retroactive. 

[00:05:15] Stacey: [00:05:15] Yes, it became actually, uh, actually the, the, the law, the Supreme court ruled that you not life without parole was unconstitutional.

[00:05:25] Yes. And then, um, but it took six years for Pennsylvania to make it retroactive. 

[00:05:31] Abbie: [00:05:31] So you went into an adult facility at the age of 

[00:05:34] Stacey: [00:05:34] 14? Yup. I turned, I turned, actually turned 15 that grade. 

[00:05:39] Abbie: [00:05:39] So were you the youngest person in greater 

[00:05:42] Stacey: [00:05:42] for maybe? I'm not sure if there were other juveniles as young as myself there at that time.

[00:05:49] Cause I was asking when I grabbed the grade for, they wouldn't allow me. You know, put me on a situation where I was isolated from population show. I, you know, I couldn't get out to see if there was others, my age or younger at that time, but I'm really not sure, but I believe so. 

[00:06:08] Abbie: [00:06:08] So you were essentially in isolation for how long of your, of the beginning of your sentence.

[00:06:21] Stacey: [00:06:21] And I stayed there for about a month and then they transferred me to camp hill. But at that time, can't tell, had just had a riot. I'm gonna say this was in November of 1989. And camp hill had a riot there, right. Came to rise was in, I believe, October of 1989. So I got shipped to a place that was essentially still burning.

[00:06:51] So I went one situation too. I was aware from the fryer pen incident. Yes. I was locked down at greeter for it. And then when I got to camp hill, I was still locked down because of what was happening in there. So as a matter of fact, I was even more isolated at camp hill because there was no movement at all because of the.

[00:07:16] Yes, it was, there was nothing. There was you, you was just, I was just in the cell. And how long was that? I stayed at camp hill for I'm gonna say five months is a wonder how I kept my sanity under those circumstances. That can't feel I remember because there, when I got, when I arrived at camp hill, there was no visits.

[00:07:37] There was no going to the kitchen to eat. There was no, as initially there was no mail. There was no, there was no type of service. Going on there. We would take a shower with laundry soap because there was no regular soap. You know, staying, there was no way to buy or they didn't give us soap. So they would give us a cup of liquid laundry soap to seek a shop.

[00:07:59] We had minutes to take this shower with handcuffs on, and my job was only at this time I was only 15 years old. So it was like, if you, if you can imagine, if you ever seen the movie, the wizard of Oz, And, um, and you see how Dorothy got swept up in his hurricane, this tornado. And she was in his world that seeded that's how my life felt.

[00:08:23] You know, I went, I just got sentenced to life without parole. I went the greater foot for about a month, and then I went to a worst situation that can feel so my skin got so bad. You understand, from Washington that liquid laundry soap, that it started to appeal and crack base everywhere. My mother's sister came to visit me when they allow us to have visits again, they didn't recognize who I was.

[00:08:48] I went out there, I lost a whole bunch. I lost a lot of weight. My clothes dripping off of me and my hair was, I had a, a big Bush, you know, with dandruff. And so immediately when they saw who I was, my mother was like that can't be my son, my citizen. That can be my brother. And it just started crying because of my condition.

[00:09:10] You know, the mentioned the citizen and that whole experience just happened. So they've obviously listened. As long as you hit here, we won't be here to see you again, you know, under what you looking like, you know, under these circumstances. So when I was released, when I got transferred from, um, camp hill to rock mew, it felt like.

[00:09:33] I was going home, you know, just how that's not good if you get out of camp hill. 

[00:09:37] Abbie: [00:09:37] So before you went in at 14, what were your relationships like with girls, with friends? How, how were you social? Were you quiet? Were you shy? How was 

[00:09:49] Stacey: [00:09:49] that? I was actually very shy when I was, when I was a kid. I mean, I had a lot of friends.

[00:09:56] 'cause I, I, I played sports, you know, I was good at sports, um, basketball, football. I was a good dancer actually, when I was, I was a very good dancer. I was in a couple of dance groups, a dance contest is, and one of the few dance contest is at school that I was in. Uh, I was one of the top dance to, you know, we should do break dancing and stuff like that.

[00:10:19] I was very good at that, but is, it was a dilemma because I was very good at it and people liked me for it. But at the same time, I was a very shy person. I remember, um, I used to wear dark glasses when I danced, because I didn't want to see, I felt like I was hiding behind those glasses. When it come, when it came to relationships, I was always shocked to approve.

[00:10:44] You know, one of those guys who would go to girl and say, can I have your phone number? Or, or if anything, I would write a note or something like that. 

[00:10:56] Abbie: [00:10:56] Well, you go out with me, check off. 

[00:11:00] Stacey: [00:11:00] So, you know, but you know, uh, I had a lot of friends and I had a lot of friends and, um, but I was always the one that was in the, I didn't like being out front.

[00:11:10] Like the spotlight at all, you go 

[00:11:12] Abbie: [00:11:12] to prison at 14. And then for the next 30 years, essentially your only experience or interaction with women is with either volunteers or correctional officers. 

[00:11:27] Stacey: [00:11:27] Yes. Yes. It was. Um, yes, that, that was the gist of it. I met women like during the course of my time through other people, you understand?

[00:11:37] Um, I will correspond with women through. Um, phone calls and, uh, occasionally, um, uh, visits, but essentially, you know, that was it. Did you feel 

[00:11:49] Abbie: [00:11:49] lonely 

[00:11:50] Stacey: [00:11:50] inside truly, you know, prison is a very lonely place, so I, yeah, I felt normally or not, but I always dreamed about being in a relationship, you know? I mean, I used to sit back and think about what would it be like to be mad, to be married or.

[00:12:09] To walk with the women in the park, holding hands, going on dates, you know, because those are the things that I, I never did when I was, um, before I came. Did 

[00:12:18] Abbie: [00:12:18] you think that it was possible that you would get out? 

[00:12:22] Stacey: [00:12:22] I'm a hopeful person? You know, I always try to look on the bright side of things. And so I never gave up hope because of that, you know, because of who I am, but looking at the law and how things went.

[00:12:36] What make an individual become hopeless in a sense. So in my subconscious, I never gave up hope that I would get out. How, how, 

[00:12:44] Abbie: [00:12:44] how did you maintain 

[00:12:45] that? 

[00:12:46] Stacey: [00:12:46] I always tell people like I'm a dreamer and I do, I became that, I believe when I got to camp hill, because there was nothing at camp hill. So I would just lay in my bed dream about what would I be doing?

[00:13:02] I'm 15. So what would I be doing? At this age, if I was home now, you know, I will be, you know, uh, I will just be going to high school. And so I was thinking about, you know, w w w what my friends, you know, what were they doing now? You're not sitting here in the state penitentiary thinking and dreaming about what I'd be doing at 15, you know, going into my junior prime and going on my senior prime eventually and going to hike, going to college.

[00:13:29] And so I begin to live. Through my dreams, you know, I would, you know, uh, do things and, you know, run the exercise. And that was my escape. You know, I'm dreaming about life outside of the fence. You know, my body was, you know, stuck in there, but my mind and my heart was always. 

[00:13:51] Abbie: [00:13:51] So over time, I'm sure you built these fantasies of what the outside world looked like and would feel like, did you feel a sense when you got out?

[00:14:04] Were you like, wow, this is just what I thought it would be. Or did you feel disappointed or were you impressed? What were those feelings once you were released? How did it compare to the dream world you had created in your mind? 

[00:14:19] Stacey: [00:14:19] Imagine. Like sitting on your couch or laying back and get bed and does having this vision of how you want your life to be.

[00:14:29] And then all of a sudden, somebody come along and Dow she would with a cold bucket of water. That's how it was when we talk about relationships and with family and friends. And that was it. Wasn't nothing how I imagined it was. Just to be totally honest with you. It wasn't, it wasn't how it was. It didn't go off as smooth.

[00:14:53] You know how I imagine it would, you know, when I, um, came home, in what ways? Well, um, to this day, I'm still trying to re-establish ties with a lot of my immediate family. When I came home, I didn't come home to a Greek situation. My first name. I was released. I was, I was homeless. That was the beginning of that fantasy, you know?

[00:15:22] Uh, not that not being, you know, how I thought it would be. I didn't have a place to stay originally. I was supposed to go home, come home to a home plan with my, my father, but like two weeks before I was released, he had he reneged and said for whatever reason, I couldn't come. So my, my relationship, uh, with him, wasn't really there over the years because he never visited me when I was in prison, but he invited me to come home to his house and I'm thinking, okay, maybe he wanted to like, you know, re he went to men, you know, the ties that was broken when I went to prison or whatnot, I'm an adult man now.

[00:16:03] So I said, okay. So, but two weeks prior to me coming home, he changed his mind. You know, I guess it's this house of, you know, but what I've recently changed, I don't know if it, you know, he's married and I really didn't know what the situation was, but sit. So I had to scramble at the last minute to get another home plan friend of mine who was actually, who actually knew, knows, um, a landlord.

[00:16:26] She had a room that was available to rent. So she said I can come home and you know, I can stay at, stay in that room. So that became a home. When I went to the room, it was unlivable. I wouldn't allow my pet to live in there. You understand? I was grateful for her giving me that to come home to, but I was like, I can't, the cell I just left was, was better than that.

[00:16:52] So it was tell my parole officer what the situation was. He said, well, if you have anybody, cause we don't want to cause send you back or we really don't want you to go to a halfway house. So if she, if have anyone who you can live. I contacted my, my, one of my nieces and she allowed me to stay with her for the night.

[00:17:14] And mind you, this is the same night I came home after 30 years. Uh, I couldn't stay there for long. So my sister, the next day said that I can live with her. So I went and, and that was the beginning of me slowly getting on my feet. Beginning of that first night was my dose of reality. The situation with my family.

[00:17:36] Wasn't like, I thought it would be that I thought it would be, you know, I would come home and I mean, I wasn't looking for a party, but I thought I would be embraced. You know, it has been a long time, you know, and I grew up in this, I'm figuring the embrace would be warmer or whatever, but it, that, that wasn't like that so quickly.

[00:18:00] Figure it out like, Hey, you know, you here and you have to make things happen for yourself. You really can't depend on family or, you know, you really can't depend on that. 

[00:18:09] Abbie: [00:18:09] So going in at 14 and then spending 30 years there, do you feel like any part of you when you were released, you were released as a 14 year old?

[00:18:20] Or did you feel like I'm 43? I have life experience to fill that time. Did you feel like that. Time inside stunted growth. What were those milestones for you? What did you feel like were turning points and the like deepest learning lessons where that built your character to be the adult you are today 

[00:18:44] Stacey: [00:18:44] going to prison at the age of 14.

[00:18:47] First, let me say prison. It does touch a group automatically. That happens because I wasn't having this conversation with someone the other day, how. You have to actually kill a part of yourself in order for you to, to live in prison when you go to prison that young you. 

[00:19:09] Abbie: [00:19:09] Mm. And what, what part of it? What part of yourself do you have to 

[00:19:13] Stacey: [00:19:13] kill?

[00:19:13] Yeah, the 14 year old I had to do away with him immediately in order for me to survive prison and I had to die in order to. I couldn't exist in Virta for a state penitentiary and survive acting like a 14 year old child. Although I wanted to, because I was, you know, I still, in a lot of ways, I still had that mentality, but it's amazing how quickly those circumstances will make you grow up.

[00:19:43] Yes. I had to immediately become a man and I remember. I stopped smiling. I didn't play any games. I became cold in the stand because that was the only way I felt that I was survived in that place. It was, it was like your mother. I don't know what is something that, you know, that's placed inside the human being that automatically we will, you will adapt to the situation in order to survive.

[00:20:12] So no one really told me, you know, uh, you had to, you know, don't do this, don't do that. It was instinctive for me. I didn't need nobody to tell me, you know, don't, uh, don't go around playing games with this man who may be in here for a triple homicide for me before I went to prison, I was just happy go lucky kid.

[00:20:33] When I got sentenced to life without parole and sent to the state penitentiary, I became unsocial. You know, I didn't socialize with a lot of people. I had to really. In order to let you in to my intimacy. You know, I had to know you and not remember, um, this one older gentleman who I've met, he said, you know something, man, I was, I was 16 years old at the time I was at Rockview.

[00:20:57] He use of the, my grandfather said to me, he said, you are the most serious. Young boy I ever met in my life, his name. Cause I was just, you know, a lot of guys, you know, uh, young guys went to the NFL, playing around and they run around the block. Like literally like running up and down the tears. I didn't do any of those things.

[00:21:18] You know, I just read, you know, I spent my time reading and uh, I'm very observant. I spend my time reading, watching, and that's how I learned. But at the same time, that helped me because it kept me out of it. I, I wasn't back and forth, you know, to the RFQ, to the restricted housing unit. I didn't get into no fights.

[00:21:40] I didn't play myself out, or I didn't put myself in a position where someone would want to hurt me. Did that 

[00:21:48] Abbie: [00:21:48] last for the whole 30 years with a whole 

[00:21:50] Stacey: [00:21:50] 30 years? 

[00:21:52] Abbie: [00:21:52] Did you feel coming out? Did you feel the ice melting over time? Or what, what allowed you to finally smile and what allowed you to feel like, okay, I can play 

[00:22:07] Stacey: [00:22:07] well, the hope became real, instead of hope in all those dreams, it was like, oh man, you know what I'm, what I'm dreamed about is becoming a reality.

[00:22:16] You know, this is, this is really happening. That part of me that I had to kill it. Was being reborn is I can laugh. I can laugh again. Now I can smile more. I had a reason to, 

[00:22:28] Abbie: [00:22:28] when you were inside, what were the things that you felt happened that built your character? What were, what were the milestones that you experienced?

[00:22:41] Stacey: [00:22:41] I had a mentor, um, a brother named, uh, man named huskier, uh, Stephan Hudson. And. I was only in his presence for about a year, but I learned so much within that year from him. He actually taught me how to be a man, a lot, a lot of the teaching. He didn't actually say, do this, or do that, or eat this or eat that or run or read.

[00:23:12] He did it by example, you know, this way he was doing these things. I like, I want it to be. You know, like him, you know, I met him when I was, when I got the RA, when I was about 15, 16 years old. And at the time he was like 40 meeting him was a milestone that really changed my, the course of my direction. You know, while I was in prison, 

[00:23:33] Abbie: [00:23:33] what I've found with many people who return home, especially after long sentences is, uh, incredible, an incredible sense of entrepreneurial.

[00:23:47] And I think in large part it's because many people who have to experience prison. As you're saying, there's this adaptation to survive. And in other words, it can be considered a incredibly heightened level of resilience to go through something where you have to kill a part of yourself and still feel hopeful.

[00:24:19] You know, many people going through these things are. Every day, deciding to wake up despite the conditions. And so there's a level of resilience in just waking up and so many times coming home, then that level of resilience is not lost. And when there's so much stacked up against you, in terms of finding a job, many people are creating their own opportunities through legitimate means.

[00:24:54] And so if you can explain a little about what you're trying to do to showcase that that would be great. 

[00:25:01] Stacey: [00:25:01] Let me say a few months back. I was one of the attorneys who actually helped us out, had contacted me and she needed some cabinets, uh, put up in a house that they recently moved into. And so she said she wanted to give the business to a return.

[00:25:20] And did I have know anybody who I just happened to be that's one of the skills that I have, so I was able to help her out, but I said to myself, well, what would you have a lot of men and women doing different things? How would it be? Well, wouldn't it be a good idea to have like a hub for these individuals?

[00:25:40] So with, if someone is looking for a returning citizens to give business to a solicitor, sir, They can go through the directory and find them. I partnered with a tech company who actually builds websites. I came with this idea of the returning citizens entrepreneur network. I'm going to have the website built.

[00:26:02] And if you are an individual who are, you know, whatever business you're in or whatever nonprofits, you know, you engage, then you can go and it's going to be totally. So, um, signup on, you can go on, you can sign up and put your business information in there. So it'd be like a directory people who was looking for whatever service they're looking for.

[00:26:23] This services is being provided by someone who, you know, who a returning citizen. Cause a lot of us have our backs up against the wall. You know, it's difficult, but some, but some of us too. Find meaningful employment, you understand employment and really sustain you, you know, out here it would give individuals more exposure.

[00:26:43] You know, it may be help, whatever business that they're involved in, it can help. It helped their business. The things I would like for this, uh, project to do is to eliminate a lot of those stigmas, you know, and, and show that, you know, although we do have, you know, those, uh, that background. You know, we are individuals do change and let our skill or let our, um, service will speak for itself.

[00:27:10] I'm 

[00:27:10] Abbie: [00:27:10] excited for the production of this site. And I think in this podcast, I've had some people challenged me and saying, oh, but you're cherry picking, uh, you know, some of the best returning citizens here, cherry picking in this way. And I think what will be nice about this website is to demonstrate that it's not cherry picking and, and just because these interviews and the individuals that you're hearing from surprise you or impress you.

[00:27:45] That's not to say that these are standout individuals that are going against the general population it's that these stories are the reality that counter the false narratives you've been fed your entire life. 

[00:28:04] Stacey: [00:28:04] Absolutely. That's right. And they will see so many of them, because like I said, Philly is just a pilot.

[00:28:09] You know, you have individuals all across the United States that we don't want here. And they out here doing good works. Yes. They all here doing good things. You started businesses, nonprofits, and I think the, they need to be highlighted, you know, like I said, change that stigma. And so you raced that fear.

[00:28:27] Like these are individuals who, if you, you, if you didn't know that they were incarcerated, if you looked at their work, you know, that's something that you wouldn't have imagined. They come from that kind of, uh, 

[00:28:39] Abbie: [00:28:39] You know, as, as you're talking, I was thinking in my mind about how some people might question, well, what about victims?

[00:28:49] Right? Like we're saying all these things about how positive change can occur inside and previously incarcerated people are doing great things and, um, really kind of highlighting the individuality and the humanity of those who are inside. Some of whom have really caused harm. I teach a victims in society.

[00:29:14] At temple, that's what you came to speak at. And then I'm teaching at ASU. And one of the things that I really attempt to do is to debunk the dualism of victim versus offender, because there's no separation, right. People inside have been victimized. And oftentimes that victimization is what led them to the path to be incarcerated if they did in fact commit harm.

[00:29:44] And so I think when, when there's that challenge of, well, what about the victims? I think people have this very narrow idea of what a victim looks like, and it's often. In contrast to a quote unquote offender, right? It's the victim versus offender, but I think it's important to acknowledge everyone's pain and the acknowledgement of the humanity inside and the pain of those who have experienced trauma inside does not.

[00:30:21] In any way, disregard the pain and trauma and harm that has been felt on the outside. I think so often we view it as black and white. We view it as either or when it's both and we can be talking about all of these things and highlighting all of these things and also be respectful to those who are.

[00:30:45] Experienced harm on the outside. And even you talking about all these things, the way you came out from the rip was to say, I don't really like to get into the details because I don't want to open that wound to the victim and their family. And so I think, I think that's something that we have to acknowledge too.

[00:31:06] I'm wondering when you were inside. Was there, were there conversations being had about the victims of the crimes that people had committed inside? Was there an acknowledgement of the harms caused 

[00:31:25] Stacey: [00:31:25] everyone who I know who, um, the serving life without parole, I'm gonna say that the vast majority of men always acknowledged.

[00:31:36] They're remorse for the victim, uh, and their, in their case, I've never met anyone who was just cooled and didn't care about the victim or the victim's family. Not, not the men who I knew, not the men who, you know, who I associated with. They always acknowledged the victim. Try not to revictimize them. And, and, and things of that nature.

[00:32:00] There was a group called mothers in charge who, who I'm associated with. And to this date. And I did, uh, um, right before the pandemic, we did a thing at Lincoln university called, uh, restorative justice. And we had a panel of three mothers who had lost children to gun violence. And it was three of, um, formally incarcerated juvenile life.

[00:32:30] And we had a discussion and it was a powerful event. It was transformative where they will, one of the mothers who, prior to the event, she expressed that she didn't want to be there. You know, she does. He had no, no interest and talking to somebody who had formally murdered, you know, who murdered somebody who's formally incarcerated.

[00:32:55] Does he, she just lost a son. But she said for the sake of Dr. Dorothy, Dr. Dorothy is the founder of mothers in charge. She would do it. And so she was on a panel and by the end of the panel, men, as woman ended up embracing each other and she was in tears. Once he said, I reminded her of her, of her son. She said the way that the men on the panel express themselves remorse a day.

[00:33:28] And how, and it was genuine, you know, there was no, you can't express that and not, and fake it, it, it transformed her whole mindset. Like it transformed her whole mindset regardless to how we view people who are formally incarcerated, but what kind of conversations I believe, you know, it could be helpful to both the victims, as well as the individual who perpetrated the crime.

[00:33:53] I used to work out with this individual. They had this. The daily news did an article about me in all my cases, the Philadelphia daily news, when they actually did the article, the next day he had approached me and he said, wow. He said, that was you in the article in the paper. So I said, yes. He said, man, he said, do you know who I am?

[00:34:16] And I said, no, I don't. I mean, I know who you are from when we worked, we worked out together. I said, I know who you are. Anyway, he was related to, uh, the victim. In my case, I didn't recognize him because, you know, he grew up in, you know, he changed over the years, his features. So after he told me that I looked at him and then it got kind of, you know, I saw like I could see the, so at any rate, he said, before I read the article, we had this image of me.

[00:34:47] Uh, he had this perception of me, the kind of person, you know, uh, I was, or. You know, because I was in prison, this was, I'm talking about like 20 years later, you know, this, they did the article. In my case in 2006, I got locked up in 1988. He said that he had this perception of me. Like I was this monster. I was mean person out of this angry bit individual.

[00:35:14] I was in prison just doing all kinds of crazy things. And he hated me. He said, but. How did he even know what that was? You all, all this time, it was working out together and he said, I can't even, I can't even hate you anymore. He hugged me. He said, I can't invite you to me. He said, because that processing I had of you wasn't real.

[00:35:38] It was the thing that I was told, you know, my anger and bitterness about what happened to things like that. He said, See, he got to know me. He got to know me, but didn't know who I was. He got to know my character, my real person, who I grew up in evolved into you understand, as opposed to what was on paper.

[00:36:02] Abbie: [00:36:02] I think we've covered a lot. And I think some of the biggest takeaways from everything you're saying is just that nothing is. As it seems until we actually experience it and touch it and feel it and engage with it. Like, you know, we started this conversation talking about, you fantasizing about life on the outside, and we're ending with a conversation about the guy inside who had fantasized about who you were.

[00:36:37] Right. And, and all of these things were challenged and. Realized through the actual experience of it. And so I think when we are thinking about the criminal justice system or anyone who's justice involved and thinking about our assumptions, we have to. Unpack, whether they're based in truth, whether they're based in tangible fact and knowledge and personal experience, or if they're just based on stories that we've heard or that we've created in our minds.

[00:37:17] And so I think that's a really. Important and nice way to kind of wrap this conversation is just an acknowledgement. That very few things are what they seem and. We have to really ground down and humanize and interact to understand the complexity of the situation, the humanity, the multifacetedness of individuals and their situations, and to understand the range of pain and joy and trauma and, you know, positivity.

[00:38:00] Each person experiences over time 

[00:38:03] Stacey: [00:38:03] after that, I totally agree. You know, you have to, you can judge based on your perception, most of the times we are wrong when we do that. Yeah. And 

[00:38:12] Abbie: [00:38:12] I think an important point too, is to know the context in which it's not just these crimes occurred when an individual's brain wasn't fully functioning, but it's also to unpack why.

[00:38:28] Like in areas that have high rates of robbery, right. Or in areas that have high rates of drug selling or in areas that have high rates of homicide, rather than deeming these areas as dangerous. We should see them as high needs in the fact that we should unpack. Why are people meeting to Rob in this area?

[00:38:52] Why are people needing to sell drugs in this area? Why is there interpersonal violence in this area? And what does it reflect in terms of our greater society and our social stratification and our lack of resources and are all of these things. Much bigger than just the individual case. They, they reflect a much bigger picture that we need to address, but I think this conversation has been really helpful and has addressed a lot of assumptions and has covered a lot of bases.

[00:39:24] So I really, I really appreciate you joining me today. 

[00:39:28] Stacey: [00:39:28] Definitely. I, I appreciate you having me. Uh, if you ever, um, at any time I'm here.

[00:39:37] Abbie: [00:39:37] Thank you so much for participating in my critical conversation with Stacey Torrance. I thought it was important to showcase the reality. Stacy faced upon returning home. Several other guests have spoken similarly about how most non justice involved folks tend to think that those were turning home.

[00:39:55] Especially after long unjust sentences are embraced with open arms, because this is what we see on TV and hear in popular investigative podcasts. But because of the severing that prison does to family and community ties many leave prison with no viable housing options and no active support system.

[00:40:17] Stacy noted how there are multiple deaths that occur in prison. One being a death of play in order to survive in prison, as well as a death of community, these deaths can be particularly impactful for those entering adult prison as children in 2012, the Supreme court case Miller versus Alabama ruled sentencing children to mandatory life without parole was unconstitutional and therefore would be prohibited.

[00:40:45] Covered. This doesn't mean that children can never be sentenced to life without parole. It's solely just gives judges discretion in the decision. Youth who are sentenced to life in prison are found to actually endorse some of the most upbringing aligned with my discussion with Stacy. In this episode on the victim offender overlap in 2012, the sentencing project released findings from a survey they did.

[00:41:10] Interviewing individuals with life sentences who were sentenced as children and found that 79% witnessed violence in the home regularly, less than half were attending school at the time of their offense, 47% were physically abused. 80% of girls reported histories of physical abuse and 77% of girls reported histories of sexual.

[00:41:34] It's also important to note that 62% of all those serving juvenile life without parole are black aside from important justice considerations. It's also really expensive to incarcerate a child for their entire life. A 50 year sentence for a 16 year old, according to the sentencing project would cost.

[00:41:56] Over 2.2, $5 million. And they're currently about 1,450 individuals in prison, serving life sentences for crimes that they were convicted of as children. So you do the math in 2016, the Supreme court ruling was deemed retroactive, which allowed the reopening and re sentencing of all those sentence to mandatory life.

[00:42:19] As children, the cases are ongoing. To wrap. I think it was helpful to hear about the restorative justice sessions Stacy participated in and the role of proximity and conversation in healing. When thinking of how to hold individuals accountable, address harms and speak closure for those who've been harmed.

[00:42:37] Restorative justice is a great vehicle while not perfect. It's definitely far more effective than our current system at actually achieving justice and healing. Not only individuals, but communities. Expect new episodes every other Monday. And don't forget to subscribe, rate, leave a review, send this to someone you think is into it.

[00:42:58] I am Abbie Henson, and this was a critical conversations.